My conclusion is that Rav has been banned for conducting the operation in a bannable way.
Since we don't have access to the facts, but rather, to various biased interpretations of the said facts, we probably shouldn't discuss Rav's specific case.
What we should do, is figure out how we could get some clarity to the spying rules and/or OOC planning rules.
We already know that all the rules contain mistakes and unclarities, but in this case, we have more confusion than we can handle.
My conclusion is that Rav was banned as a way to "stick it to Keir"
Seriously, this ban is crazy. 90% of the SWC community thinks its crazy. Maybe its time for the Admin to start actually listening to people?
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Hello, Mirror - so glad to see you my friend, it's been a while
Searching, Fearless - where do I begin to heal this wound of self-denial
Face yourself man!
Which is a poor view of things. The players also help pay for the server. Imagine if we all stopped. THEN he could rightfully claim it's all his. Then when SWC ends up shut down because he can't afford it... I don't want to hear you bitching, Isolo.
If Rav is banned for his actions, Maximilian Powers should be as well. He, after all, joined a group just to cause damage. Which is supposedly what Rav did wrong. Vodo's admitted to having ordered it, in public, before as well.
It could be argued that Kiltar did the same thing to Kathol.
But, I digress.
These actions have been preformed MANY times. Its only a problem now because Dreighton and PDJ are convention buddies. If you are going to ban Rav for this crap, you gotta go back and punish everybody else who has done it.
In the spirit of being fair.
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Hello, Mirror - so glad to see you my friend, it's been a while
Searching, Fearless - where do I begin to heal this wound of self-denial
Face yourself man!
The major issue i have, is that like squall said, its happended MANY times.
and only now is being punished, i think what he did in regards to joining the faction to hurt it is a good and proper game method, as long as no cheating (intelligence passing) was done.
If anything, it looks very bad, and thats bad for the game.
its dissapointing in my opinion, poor show.
Should rav be banned, imo for the spying accusations? no
for the OOC plotting and faction joining? its debatable, if there's even evidence to the fact.
OOC Plotting happens. Its going to happen. All but the dumbest newbie Talks and plans OOC. If OOC Planning/Plotting is a bannable offense then hurry up and ban me because everyone does it. When has anyone ever plotted IC? I strongly believe Rav shouldn't be banned. MAYBE he broke the rules but thats when warnings come into place. Not Instant bans.
OOC plotting happens, but when the OOC peparation is the key element, decieving, and meant to exploit an advantage, thats gotta turn on the "I think this would be godmodding if the game was finnished" lights on your brain, i mean, this is still an RPG sim game with turns, rolls, and skillchecks. Rav stepped too far outside the RPG gamer mindset, also known as the correct interpretation of the grey areas, he only cared about the outcome, i think thats why he is banned.
We wouldnt be talking about this if we had functioning weapons instead of a/e already. So bring out the fireworks already. :p
Everything we do in SWC has OOC preparation. For instance, if I want to create a faction, I don't talk to the characters IC. Sure, we might come up with an IC backstory, but I don't RP it out. I go and say "Hey, Beo (note that Beo isn't his handle), do you wanna join my group?"
Another example, during the several RSs I participated in, we'd all get together and discuss who was going to do what, the rules, ect. If it were all IC, none of that "OOC preparation" would have happened.
Thats how this game works.
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Hello, Mirror - so glad to see you my friend, it's been a while
Searching, Fearless - where do I begin to heal this wound of self-denial
Face yourself man!
Also, with Rav's new character not being created yet his actions can be preceived as his characters actions leading up to creation. A new character is not born, it exists for several years up to several decades before entering the SWC realm.
The question at hand is wether he should be banned for a first time offense or not. This is also the harshest punishment stemming from actions that were primarily aimed at newbs. Was there even a slap on the wrist for what happened to those Wookiee newbs?
I'm just trying to point out that there are perfectly legit views from all sides.
Squall, almost every ooc preparation we do is not deceiving. I dont even know Rav's 'agravants'.. but if he, for example, made a false ooc story about himself AND a fake IC story to increase his chances, thats an agravant. If he made a new character for that purpose, thats an agravant too. And the list goes on and on about things you can do.
Everyone is entitled to demand not to be lied ooc. We just dont do usually do it because we are here to be lied and to have fun with that, but if someone gets gravely affected by it, he can choose to complain about it.
“if he, for example, made a false ooc story about himself AND a fake IC story to increase his chances”
Now you're pulling things out of your posterior. Let's not muddy the issue with more rumours and random conjecture.
I, for one, am interested only in the details and facts, to see if they support the result, since at the moment we even have two different Admin giving us two different reasons FOR the ban.
Saying "if he did this" and "if this happened" does nothing save confuse everybody and take us places that probably don't even apply. If you don't KNOW what happened, then don't TALK about what happened.
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"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."
I don't think association with Eidola is asked on the application to join Raptors, Pap. Not mentioning an association with Keir is far from making up a story.
And I may be wrong, but I don't think any actual concrete plans were made until after the character was created. Rav didn't give any information as far as characters and such. Keir knew he had just spawned, so he was at his species' homeworld.
Its not that hard of a plan to make though. "Keir, I just spawned." "Cool, Rav, I'm at Cathar...want a job?" "Sure" "When you get on the ship, ask to be pilot. Then dock it on my ship" "Ok, cool"
C'mon. This ban is horseshit. Nobody else has ever been punished for this kind of thing, Rav should not be the first.
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Hello, Mirror - so glad to see you my friend, it's been a while
Searching, Fearless - where do I begin to heal this wound of self-denial
Face yourself man!
If he chose his new character race based on the spawning planet that would give him the most advantage on acomplishing the operation: another agravant for Rav.
Hal, i dont know if any of this is true, but as far as i know, if its confusing its Ravs fault, they did not cooperate and I hope not cooperating is never a tactical-legal advantage. So they are partially admiting PDJ allegations, which i dont even know either, heh.. but its not that hard to see what really went on.
Sometimes you have enough dots to connect and see the picture, even without the testimony or cooperation from the 'guilty' person. Call me a fool but I think that could be the case, and not a case of the ever sickening mantra of the conspiracy theory and the admin bias.
Did you actually READ the thread, Paparrin, or did you just skim it for information that disagreed with the people posting here in support of Rav?
Let me break a few things down for you:
Point 1 - Reason for the ban.
Fact 1 - Dreighton's Sim News states the reason for the ban was "infiltration, no matter if any information was passed".
Fact 2 - Veynom states in this thread that the reason for the ban was Golden Rule violation.
Fact 3 - Joining a faction with the intent to cause harm to member or assets has been allowed, and never been punished in the past.
Question 1 - Which of these two reasons is the actual reason for the ban?
Question 2 - If the reason is Golden Rule violation, as Veynom said, and not because the Rav "join[ed] the Raptor Pirates with a harmful intention", then does Dreighton actually understand the rules she is ruling on?
Question 3 - If Dreighton does NOT understand the rules, then is she in ANY way qualified to make a ruling - and ban a member - based upon those rules?
Point 2 - Keir/Rav being uncooperative.
Fact 1 - Veynom stated his opinion that they were uncooperative in the investigation.
Question 1 - If they were so uncooperative, how do the Admin know the operation was planned before Rav had a character?
Question 2 - If Rav/Keir admitted to planning the operation OOC, isn't that being open and honest about what occured, and therefore being cooperative?
Question 3 - If neither Rav nor Keir admitted to planning the operation prior to Rav having a character, is there actual evidence of this to support that part of the reason for the ban?
Point 3 - Planning the operation OOC.
Fact 1 - Veynom states this as being the main reason for the ban.
Fact 2 - Basically every operation - from construction to Red Scenarios to A/E attempts - that I have been part of or witnessed in the Combine has been planned primarily OOC.
Fact 3 - Many players create their characters after OOC discussion about the IC needs of a faction they intend to join, or after speaking to friends/veterans OOC about what would be good.
Question 1 - How is this different from what Rav/Keir did?
Question 2 - Is every other incident of OOC planning now going to become illegal because of this ruling?
Question 3 - Would it have been different if Rav had created a character, planned the entire operation 5 minutes after that while standing at his spawn point, and then joined the Raptor Pirates afterwards?
Question 4 - Would it have been different if Keir had approached a new player on the "joined within the last 24 hours" list and paid that person to do everything that Rav did?
Question 5 - Would it be illegal for me to die today, and spend the next three weeks planning to join a government (lets say the GE) with my new character, spawn at a race homeworld, join the GE immediately, get OOF A/E privs, and arrest everybody just standing around at that spawn point?
Point 4 - Spying Rules.
Fact 1 - The spying rules state that it is ONLY illegal to infiltrate a faction for the purposes of passing information.
Fact 2 - Numerous incidences of joining a faction to cause harm - to it or to members - have occured in the past and been allowed.
Fact 3 - Dreighton's Sim News states that it contains a clarification to the Spying Rules.
Fact 4 - Dreighton's Sim News states that Rav was banned for infiltrating with intent to cause harm to a faction, regardless that information was not passed.
Question 1 - Under what circumstances IS it illegal to infiltrate a faction?
Question 2 - If it is (and always has been) illegal to infiltrate a faction in order to cause harm, why hasn't everyone else who has done so been retroactively banned because of this rule clarification?
Question 3 - What counts as "cause harm" to a faction anyway?
All we have a QUESTIONS about what occured, because there are different stories being given by different Admin. They don't make sense individually, and they contradict one another and past evidence.
It isn't hard to see what really went on with Keir's operation, but it's hard to see what went on with the Admin investigation. The rules, facts, and conclusions DO NOT MAKE SENSE.
Even if we take out the issue of Rav being banned, we are still left with the need for answers on what the Spying Rules DO and DO NOT cover, and questions about whether or not Dreighton understands the rules that she is imposing punishments based upon!
Every time you say "If Rav did this" or "If Rav did that" you cloud the issue and start more rumours. We don't need more rumours and confusion - we need answers.
Edited By: Hal Breden on Year 8 Day 91 14:38 ____________
"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."
All I read from your post is the same I already explained, you are saying is that admins:
A) have absolutely no idea of how to spot a spying or golden rule violation.
or
B) they are biased.
Because..is it really that hard to read a few pages and see a few events and make a desicion? does everyone go about thinking about the repercussions for one side or the other and 'adjust' accordingly? i think not, i think they just say 'ban him' or 'it was fair'.
We dont need to know anything, we just have know that when people does stupid things, they get corrected. They read the reports and heard the parties, and then they made a decision, just because this things never get reported that doesnt mean Ravs case wasnt a no brainer if you get a chance to see what he did. And dont try to compare this case with others, i bet its so simple anyone of us would rule it the same way.
I believe Rav did something dumb and got busted, and no other case is similiar or should influence the outcome of this ruling. People here cant admit there is a chance that was all there was to it. They always want to see a mand behind the curtain or the reasons behind the reasons. It was just a couple guys reading what Rav did, doing the ruling, and then going back to coding or having breakfast or whatever.
Its not that confusing, let Rav deal with it privately if he really didnt do anything wrong, or ask for PDJs report if you want to have a real educated opinion (i dont have it). Because Rav ranting in here is doing is feeding that sick paranoia that gets build on EVERY controversial event, the old sad bias ghost.
Edited By: Paparrin on Year 8 Day 91 15:44 ____________
Actually, we do need to know something. Specifically, what rule was broken and in what manner. The reason for that is obvious; without knowledge of what is being banned for, players are unable to avoid such bans. These things must be clearly defined and posted on the rules, and communication in these instances is extremely important. At the moment, Hal is correct; there are indeed a number of contradictory reports related to this issue, and the only public posting on the subject reflects neither the rules nor what Veynom has said. That is a dangerous situation and is detrimental to the community. Clarification (ideally via Sim News and/or rules pages) is all that is being asked for, and is indeed significant.
