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Year 10 Day 241 6:55
Sephiroth Rhapsodos

I was wondering why the Lucrehulk 3210 has such a small passenger capacity? I hope this isn't a forbidden topic here, if it is then it's not intentional. i'm just curious cos it's such a huge ship, and on wookiepedia it's got 100,000... but on this it's 1000. just seems small to me. I'm just wondering what the reason is for this. Cos it's the 3rd biggest ship in the game, it doesn't have a significantly bigger cargo hold than other ships, it doesn't have a great hull or weapons compared to much smaller ships, and it's passenger count is inferior too. didn't seem very fair to me is all, so i was wondering if there was a reason this had been done.?


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Year 10 Day 241 8:00
I asked something similar a week ago or so I think Ellias answer fit this question as well.

Link to Muurian Transport Question:
http://www.swcombine.com/forum/thread.php?thread=35381&page=0

Ellias Aubec
Its just the way the stats were written up ages ago, and people just haven't been allowed to fix them. Presumably because the admins want to wait for combat, see how the weapons will work, and then fix up all the ships stats to fit that system into canon.

Or they are just lazy. Take your pick... 


Year 10 Day 241 8:15
Sephiroth Rhapsodos

well that's a bit strange... it's really quite terrible, cos this isn't something that needs combat to be affected... it affects the cargo the ships can carry in both cases. people should be allowed to recommend updates i say... fair enough not if it's to make it canon, but to make it a bit more realistic. but still, i'm not going to be controversial... i don't know what goes on with the admins, so i won't criticise.


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Year 10 Day 241 8:21
Yes, there are quite a few errors among stats. My favourite of the moment is that a YT-2k should hold 110T of cargo, yet it only holds like 12T or something.

I have thought about going through everything and trying to make a list with all the changes that would be needed to make them canon, but I'm wary of taking such an endeavour if it'll just be ignored anyway. I'm sure many others have had similar ideas.


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Year 10 Day 241 8:33
Sephiroth Rhapsodos

Well, i would love to make a list, but i don't think canon is the way to go... just take something we feel is acceptable, like the star destroyer line maybe, and base the performance of other ships off of them... stats have to be configured so that people can survive when combat's out, but i do still stand that the lucrehulk is ridiculous... lol.


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Year 10 Day 241 9:59
Alex Tylger

I can think of a few reasons for the current stats.

First of all, when it comes to the current cargo capacity stats of many ships, I would say that canon is mostly irrelevant as the weight system of entities in SWC may not match canon or RL. The ships of the game have just been adjusted to be able to hold a reasonable amount of SWC cargo, allowing various ships to fill various roles. The YT-2000 is one of the fastest ships in the game, hence is balanced with a lower carrier capacity, while a YT-1210 is slower, but has nicer capacity.

When it comes to the hull and weaponry of the Lucrehulk, I can agree with you that compared to certain other ships, they are both "low", but it is still far superior to most. I wouldn't mind seeing the hull increased somewhat or doubled, but that won't happen until a "preparing for combat stat revision". Part of the issue of the Lucre, compared to say.. the Home One, or the Pulsar, is that it is a ship that can be regularly produced by the Trade Federation and not unique like the aforementioned two ships. Hence there is a certain balance in not making the Lucre overly powerful. As for the weapons, I believe they're based on the idea the original stats given for the Lucre around the time of The Phantom Menace where it had 42 quad turbolaser batteries, a significantly weaker type of turbolaser which has merely been converted to laser turrents times four in SWC. Since the time of TPM, the idea of variations in the Lucrehulk designs and purpose have arisen, with wookieepedia now listing 7-8 different Lucre. It's fair to assume that our Lucre is one with pre-Clone Wars stats. Anyways, 42*4 = 168, fairly close to the current 164. Though the 164 may also stem from the Clone Wars refitting of Lucres, giving them 164 quad laser batteries. I figure what type of guns the Lucre sports will also be reviewed at a later point, being given a stronger capital-type laser turret rather than the standard laser turret.

It might also be pointed out that the Lucrehulk, if it is pre-Clone Wars in design, is a ship 30 years old if you consider that we are in year 10 and the Clone Wars were some 18-22 years before the game started. Hence it is not that strange that it can't kick the ass of all modern ships.

In the cases of a lot of capital ships, the passenger capacity seems to be one tenth of canon. Which means the Lucre ought to have 10,000 rather than 1,000. The Home One and SSD sport needlessly high capacities. I say needless because under the current NPC and PC system, even with droids, it is unlikely you'd ever need more than 1,000. Basically you could carry a fourth of the Combine's active members in a Lucre. I figure that's also a thing for review in the future if the TF is given the ability to use droid armies and can use Lucres as droid control ships.

Another reason why it may be low is because the Lucrehulk can actually land and it sports one of the highest cargo capacities in the game, making it easy to build vast amounts of facilities in one landing. The admins may have figured that limiting the passenger capacity would limit owners from being able to build two cities in one go with 10 NPCs building each facility.



Edited By: Alex Tylger on Year 10 Day 241 10:05
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Year 10 Day 241 10:12
I believe part of the problem of altering stats has always been conflicting sources. Person A comes along, citing a reference where a stat is 45. Person B comes along with a different reference that it was 20.

Additionally is the point you already raised: Balance trumps canon.

Is there a need for a global revision, standardisation, and balancing of stats? Almost certainly. But doing it piecemeal is not the way to go about it.


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Year 10 Day 241 12:05
Sephiroth Rhapsodos

hmm... you're right, and the admins are of course the only ones who can do that. because i assume they're unbiased atm as i see it when combat comes out nobody will be able to stand against the galactic empire, but i do think that every player will be biased towards their own faction, so it wouldn't be fair. therefore as long as it's an eventual goal i'm in no rush for anything to be done about it. not a huge thing in the scheme of things anyway. thanks for the answer though


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Year 10 Day 241 12:24
Kendall Holm

hmmm .... have you taken in to account for the NPC crew you cannot interact with, you are not piloting your ship all by your lonesome. I figure the Passenger cap is based on Total Passenger Cap - Crew = Passenger Cap


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Year 10 Day 241 18:18
On the other hand Kendall, there are frieghters whose passenger capacity includes both the canon crew and canon passenger capacity. SO if that is the case, its only for the capital ships.


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Year 10 Day 242 1:50
I had always assumed that the minimum crew compliment (least amount of personnel needed for a ship to function) was integrated into the ships stats, as sort of a "ghost crew"- And that the passenger capacity was above and beyond thay minimum requirement.

I never bothered to ask anyone, because I saw a few pages where the Lictor was said to have a minimum crew compliment of roughly 900 people and thought "They wouldn't overlook something that obvious, it must just be a given that those people are working on the ship already."


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Year 10 Day 242 5:24
Sephiroth Rhapsodos

on wookiepedia, the 100,000 passengers isn't including the crew, and like it's been said, other ships have a passenger count of 10% the canon number, whereas the lucrehulk has only 1%...


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Year 10 Day 242 5:35
Teyacapan Quetzalxochitl

Complement: 200 battle droids or troops
Crew: 500
Passengers: 50

Those are the capacities it names for the LH-3210 transport thingy on wookieepedia.
One thousand people seems as if it's too high.


Year 10 Day 242 7:03
Sephiroth Rhapsodos

i'm sorry, where did you get that stat from? that's ridiculous. look along the right hand side here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lucrehulk-class_battleship

Complement:

C-9979 landing craft (50)
Vulture droid starfighters (1,500)
Troop carriers (1,500)
Multi-Troop Transports (550)
Armored Assault Tanks (6,250)
B1 battle droids (over 329.600)

Crew: 150 to 350

Passengers: 100,000+

Cargo Capacity: 500 million tons.

please do tell me where you got your stats from. i have to say from the size i believe mine more, especially seeing as you said you got yours from wookiepedia.


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Year 10 Day 242 7:09
Teyacapan Quetzalxochitl

lol.

In order:

"i'm sorry, where did you get that stat from?" Lucrehulk class cargo freighter

"look along the right hand side here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lucrehulk-class_battleship " Lets do that. Model - Modified Lucrehulk-class LH-3210 cargo freighter

"please do tell me where you got your stats from." Lucrehulk class cargo freighter

"i have to say from the size i believe mine more, especially seeing as you said you got yours from wookiepedia." Take a look in the upper left corner of your own link.

2qu6yd5.jpg


Year 10 Day 242 7:15
Sephiroth Rhapsodos

i fail to see your point, as it clearly states in the rules that the combine uses the lucrehulk 3210 battleship, not the cargo hauler, and it is modified in the sense that the warship has been made from the cargo hauler, not that that is a special flagship version or something like that.


Edited By: Sephiroth Rhapsodos on Year 10 Day 242 7:22
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Year 10 Day 242 7:24
Teyacapan Quetzalxochitl

The point is that pretty much every stat matches the hauler, from the passenger capacity down to the weaponry.

The point is that the name does not clearly reflect which ship swc uses since the battleship does not use the 3210 designation anywhere, so, if anything, the name should be changed once again to more accurately reflect the ship model.

The point is that you can keep discussing stats forever, they won't suddenly be altered, especially not when there's conflicting information.


Year 10 Day 242 7:31
Sephiroth Rhapsodos

i'm not saying the stats should be altered now, what i am saying atm though is that you are clearly showing the wrong stats for the ship, as it clearly states that the battleship is a modified 3210 so it's obviously of the same class, and the rules state it is a battleship and that is it's primary purpose. i don't want the rules to reflect the canon source, as i've said before, balance is more important, but when the time comes to revise them, it should clearly be the battleship model taken into account. there is no conceivable reason why the lucrehulk in the game should be the original hauler, which pretty much ceased production when the clone wars started to become carriers or droid control or battleships, and the game is set long after that. but i don't want to argue, though i'm sure most people would agree it is the battleship the stats should be from, not the original hauler. though i would welcome some opinions from elsewhere... we can see the general feeling about it.


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Year 10 Day 242 7:44
Teyacapan Quetzalxochitl

The rules state nothing. Hell, the swc name used to be XL-7000 until someone suggested another name. (I say this to illustrate how easily the name is changed and how little bearing it has on things.)

The stats, however, suggest it is an unmodified hauler. It would also make more sense for it to be said unmodified hauler with R&D in mind. As for production ceasing, that goes for both models, and is thus a rather useless argument.

I'm sure most people lusting after a lucrehulk would rather want it to be the heavily armed battleship, yes. Sadly majority rule isn't applicable here.


Year 10 Day 242 7:55
Sephiroth Rhapsodos

i don't think it would make more sense at all for it to be the unmodified ship. it's the tf's main battleship throughout the clone wars, therefore the battleship version kept into production much longer, it's one of the big 3 here, and that puts it at a serious disadvantage against even much smaller ships if you make it a cargo version, not to mention if it's built for cargo, then why would it hold such a pathetic amount for it's size. the next biggest cargo ship is a lot smaller and it holds considerably more in itself. this means that what has happened is the lucrehulk has the worst of both worlds, but i still feel it is designed to be the battleship version... if anybody on the programming team could clarify this though, it would be very helpful for this thread.


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