MandalMining
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Year 11 Day 58 14:02
I'm owner of a faction (Outland Mining Corporation) that recently lost planetary control of a habitable planet. At the time, there were 3 city slabs on that planet (Mitillian), 2 owned by OMC and one by myself. There are several facilities in those cities, all owned by OMC, completed and powered, and several more residential buildings all owned and powered by OMC. Those cities all show that 100% of the flats are owned by the faction; how then, according to the rules for planetary government, could planetary control have been lost?

A report made by the current leader of the faction to the bugbase was shut down almost instantly by the person it was assigned to (Jesfa Ackmin), and in the following 24 hours, 25 NEW CITY SLABS have been dropped on Mitillian, almost guaranteeing that planetary control could not be regained without completely destroying planetary stats for everyone involved.

This is, in my opinion as well as others, if not a coding problem or bug, at the very least (or worst, depending on your code of ethics) an exploit of a convoluted 'burp' in the rules or formula for planetary government. I'm asking someone to look into this adn rectify the problem, as at no time should there have been any flats that did not belong to the faction, and this situation could have been avoided. Thank You.


Year 11 Day 58 14:38
Were those facilities powered?


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"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 11 Day 58 14:45
No, they weren't, and that was explained to them in the bug report already.


Year 11 Day 58 15:04
So what we have is an issue with the keyboard-chair interface and understanding of the rules?

1.1/ Planetary Control
« Back To Top
The faction owning more than 50% of the flats of a planet, with these flats being all powered is considered as the government of the planet.

- http://www.swcombine.com/rules/?Governments#Planetary_Control
 


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 11 Day 58 17:08
The issue is more WHY would unpowered facilities count as NPC-owned? If someone (or a government,whether local, regional or otherwise) owns a house or apartment building, or any other structure that isn't in use, rights of use or ownership to that entity do not disappear; the ability or right to govern does not change either. ALL flats on the planet were faction-owned; of those that were powered, 100% of the powered flats on the planet were faction-owned.

Secondary to the issue is the speed with which an unknown BF could possibly have made it in-system from ANYWHERE and drop multiple slabs in less than 24 hours. Not to mention the obvious maturity level of others involved, with cities being named like 'eat my dust bishes', 'rev strikes again', 'yarr', etc. It almost seems that for this to happen so quickly, in a system that doesn't see much traffic, someone had to know that this would or was going to happen beforehand. I'd like to see the actual timeline that caused this to occur since Y11, D56. Look at the planet, nearly 2/3 of it is now city slabs.

Losing the planet is not the issue. HOW it happened, and the manner and speed with which this happened, smacks of something smelly.


Year 11 Day 58 17:14
Suck it up. We've all had it happen. It's your fault for not making sure your flats were powered, as the rules clearly state they need to be for you to have control.

Go cut power to an entire city IRL and see how long it takes for anarchy to break loose. It's the exact same principle here - if you don't take care of your population, they aren't going to respect your control.

And you don't need a BF to lay slabs. Anyone can do it at any time. They could have been using a YT class with hyper 7. Or something modified with a hyper above that. Anyone in the sector, at least, could have been there in less than a day.

Stop expecting the Admin to fix your mistake. The code is working as expected.


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 11 Day 58 18:40
Were you paying attention? From what I've been led to believe, the construction of facilities caused it- the formula claiming that facilities UNDER CONSTRUCTION but not yet powered is the cause of it. All the completed facilities WERE POWERED. It wasn't a case of 'cutting power to an entire city IRL'. Even if it were, did anarchy set in when most of the Eastern Seaboard and a sizable chunk of Ontario Canada lost power for several days? Did the rule of American Law cease in those areas for that time? The argument is flawed.

Regardless, the planet's gone, seems several people were able to drop slabs (the BF was simply the first I saw on scanners). I don't expect the Admins to fix my mistake. It wasn't my mistake, I wasn't the one doing construction. Hope all those involved enjoy.

It's becoming more and more clear that the game is rigged for the enjoyment of a dozen or so and damn the rest of us.


Year 11 Day 58 18:48
Would just like to point out. OMC lost one planet, two days ago. Bug report was made and closed. Many parties sent ships to the system, but the planet was regained. THEN, yesterday, the other planet control was lost. Thats why so many people were able to act so fast.. they were coming for your other planet that was regained. If the other planet was a bug.. what was this one?

And I can feel for u randal, This has happened to most of us, including myself. All u can do is bust it to try to establish whatever is needed to get back control before too much damage is done. in this case, the planet is gone


Year 11 Day 58 19:50
Were you paying attention? From what I've been led to believe, the construction of facilities caused it- the formula claiming that facilities UNDER CONSTRUCTION 


Why, yes, I was paying attention. I was paying enough attention to know you hadn't mentioned a single thing about anything still being under construction before right then. Nice try, though.

I do find it strange that nobody seems to be having trouble but you.


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 11 Day 58 20:43
Once again, from the Rules:


1.1/ Planetary Control
« Back To Top
The faction owning more than 50% of the flats of a planet, with these flats being all powered is considered as the government of the planet. As an advantage, the group will get the monthly tax income of that planet and will be able to fix the Tax Level, providing they are a government faction. The group name will be displayed in the planet's information as being the legal government of that planet.

If the majority of the flats is owned by NPCs, then the government will be neutral and 'None' will appear in the planet's information.  


None of the flats or facilities on the planet were NPC owned. The rules don't tell you, unless it's printed elsewhere than in the rules for planetary governments, that unpowered facilities are calculated as being NPC-regardless of who is actually building them. That's what I'm having an issue with, as that was the reason, I've been told, that the original bug report was quashed.


Year 11 Day 58 20:53
Jesfa


The faction owning more than 50% of the flats of a planet, with these flats being all powered is considered as the government of the planet.


Year 11 Day 58 22:27
Once again: the faction owned all the flats. No, they were not all powered, but WHO OWNED ALL OF THE POWERED FLATS ON THE PLANET??? All the powered flats were also faction-owned. Someone please explain how unpowered flats- or unpowered anything, for that matter, would count as NPC-owned.

Regardless, as it's already been said, the planet's gone. Have fun with it. Can't wait for SWTOR to come out; 'nuff said.


Year 11 Day 58 23:29
The rules clearly state that only powered flats count toward planetary control. If your point is to disagree with the rule, complaining and whining after you get boned by your own misunderstanding is not the way to go about any sort of reform, if it were even to happen at all. As for your last comment, maybe mindless grinding would be better for someone such as yourself.

'nuff said. 




Year 11 Day 59 0:20
I have updated the rules to make them more clearer with an example:

The Galactic Empire owns a powered High Rise 10 (providing 10 flats) on the planet Coruscant.
At this point in time they are listed as government of the planet due to the fact that they own more than
50% of the planet's total flats.

The New Republic builds a High Rise 20, however it is left unpowered. At this point in time, neither are
listed as government due to the fact that of the 30 total flats, neither government controls the majority
of powered flats.

The New Republic finishes construction of their power generator and assigns power to their flats. At this
point in time, the New Republic is listed as government because they own and have powered 20 of the 30 total
flats. 


Year 11 Day 59 2:47
Can we also add:
"Only finished flats count towards that calculations. Facilities under constructions don't count at all."


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ORE-Vip-Fortuna.png
Year 11 Day 59 11:47
I was the one whose construction has caused this entire mess. I don't expect anything to change, I just want people to hear my side of the story, show how the rules were unclear and open to different interpretations, try to improve the game, and make sure this doesn't happen to anybody else.

First off, I am glad to see the addition of an example to the rules. If that description had been there I wouldn't have had the different interpretation of the rules and this mess would have been avoided.

Second, I would like to pull a few quotes:
The faction owning more than 50% of the flats of a planet, with these flats being all powered is considered as the government of the planet.

- Rules
 

It's your fault for not making sure your flats were powered, as the rules clearly state they need to be for you to have control.

- Hal Breden
 

The rules clearly state that only powered flats count toward planetary control

- Mikel von Bianchi
 

Ironically, even here we are reading and saying the same thing but reaching different conclusions. My interpretation of the rules prior to this was that only powered flats counted towards planetary control. As an example, if I had a planet controlled by a powered personal residence and the Galactic Empire came and laid down 30 unpowered Skyscraper 100's I would still retain control of the planet because my facility was powered while the Empire's was not and I owned more than 50% of the powered flats on the planet.

Third, I would like to pull another quote:
Go cut power to an entire city IRL and see how long it takes for anarchy to break loose. It's the exact same principle here - if you don't take care of your population, they aren't going to respect your control.

- Hal Breden
 

I don't know where anybody else lives but where I live the winters can be brutal with deep snow, the spring and fall often bring freezing rain, and the summers are full of thunderstorms and tornadoes. All of these phenomena can cause the power to drop off to an entire neighborhood or even half a city for a few days to a week. Anarchy doesn't break loose during those times, granted if it was that way for months or if I arbitrarily turned off power to people for no reason things would be different. But to expect a perfect suburban utopia while a city is undergoing construction from ground zero is not very true to IRL situations and I believe this should be reflected in the code.

Fourth, as long as we are bring IRL situations into this in an effort to make the Combine an accurate simulation, let us discuss this as it ties into the third point. I can run a faction with 30 members and tell all of my them to go pound sand on Tatooine. If they all leave the faction is left with 1 member, me, but I have two weeks time to get more people recruited before facing faction dissolution. But yet if I turn off power to one personal residence or if a tavern finishes construction unpowered I can immediately and instantaneously lose the local government and planetary control under the right circumstances. I would think trying to operate a large scale business that a faction represents alone would be much more taxing than having a few buildings without power for a few days. That doesn't sound like anything that would happen where I live and I bet it doesn't sound like something that would happen where you live either.

So, in conclusion I have shown how the original rules were not clearly written and open to different interpretations as evidenced by the proposed addition of an example by Clarr Solo. I hope this addition to the rules helps somebody else and prevents them making from operating under the same misunderstanding of the rules I had. That brings me to my last task in entering this discussion, what can we do to improve the Combine in this facet?

I propose the following changes to the rules and I will post this in the appropriate section of the forum as well. I have incorporated my proposed changes to the rules and made the language and intent of the rules and examples clearer and easier to understand. Whether this is something that can be coded and implemented is above my knowledge.

1.1 Planetary Control

The faction owning more than 50% of the flats of a planet, with these flats being all powered, is considered as the government of the planet. Unpowered flats, including those owned by the faction acting as the government of the planet, are not included and can count against the flats required to maintain planetary control. Facilities that finish their construction unpowered will have seven days to become powered before being used to determine the government of the planet. As an advantage, the group will get the monthly tax income of that planet and will be able to fix the Tax Level, providing they are a government faction. The group name will be displayed in the planet's information as being the legal government of that planet.

If the majority of the flats on a planet are owned by NPCs or are unpowered for more than seven days after construction is finished then the government will be neutral and 'None' will appear in the planet's information.

As an example, the Galactic Empire owns a powered High Rise 10, which provides 10 flats, on the planet Coruscant and totals 100% of the planet's total flats. At this point in time they are listed as government of the planet due to the fact that they own more than 50% of the planet's total flats.

The New Republic builds a High Rise 20 which is left unpowered at the completion of its construction. At this point in time, the Galactic Empire retains control of the planet as the High Rise 20 has not been used to determine the government of the planet.

Seven days later the New Republic's High Rise 20 is still unpowered. At this point in time neither are listed as the government of the planet due to the fact that of the 30 total flats on the planet the majority of them are unpowered.

Later, the New Republic finishes construction of their power generator and assigns power to their flats. At this point in time, the New Republic is listed as government because they own and have powered 20 of the 30 total flats.

If a facility containing flats (house, high-rise...) is made over to or by a faction, then the local government is recalculated. Therefore, trading facilities may generate a change of government, including the disappearance of any government for a planet (for example, if the faction governing the planet is giving all its flats to a character, then the government becomes 'None').


Year 11 Day 59 12:17
The rules don't need changing just because you screwed up. The addition of the example should provide the necessary clarity of rules to prevent anyone else from misinterpreting them. Nothing else is necessary.


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 11 Day 59 12:40
I would like to see a reply from some other members of the SWC team. If they all agree with you, Hal, then I will drop it and nothing else will be said.


Year 11 Day 59 14:37
Hal is god.



Year 11 Day 59 15:07
Xavze Zavan

Moral of the story is build your power first