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Year 11 Day 199 6:23
So here's my understanding of the situation...

-Eidola launches buildwar on Black Sun planet with only 6 flats, builds up 6 opposing flats causing planet to go uncontrolled a couple hours after first BS guy arrives at planet. Victory for Eidola is all but certain, realistically.

-Both Eidola and BS begin slabbing the planet, while BS begins arresting NPCs working on Eidola's hotels and 50-flats

-Eidola orders its members to go back and remove all the NPCs they can from the city before they get captured, since we only have 200 - with 10 on each facility, and it's clear a massacre is underway...so they remove ~9 NPCs from each facility and bring them onto the safety of their ship with orders not to add any NPCs while the BS guy is online and arresting.

-This requires arresting the NPC with in-faction a/e, since there is no other way to remove them from a job

-This does NOT give the NPC any a/e protection, since I (and others) campaigned long and hard to ensure it would not, since that would be unfair. The NPC arrested by Eidola, if placed back on a facility a few hours later, would still be able to be arrested.

-Ellias posts a SimNews saying that even though 120 NPCs were saved by pre-emptive arrests to bring them to safety, one NPC failed the arrest attempt and by some oddity of the admins' own shitty coding, apparently FAILING to arrest your own NPC *DOES* grant it immunity?

-Ellias deletes Eidola holdings on the planet, including the original six Personal Residences and OUR half of the slabbing war - but leaves Black Sun's slabs intact and sets the planet back to Black Sun control, and threatens to ban an Eidola member...

Now I don't know what world this makes sense within, but it is clearly wrong - and our assets should be returned, and the planet go back to its natural state. Because of shitty coding (which the rules page certainly doesn't warn about, and nobody knew of) - ONE npc spent ONE HOUR on a facility when he "shouldn't have" (through no Eidola malice) - and the logical response is to undo a month of planning and work, delete assets threaten to ban innocent parties?



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Year 11 Day 199 6:53
Davidus Kla

True about the situation, chronologically:

- Eidola attacks BS planet. BS is too far away, sells the planet to Subduco, gives us events of eidola building.

- Subduco is much closer, and can respond faster, so we figure to try our luck.

- 24 hours pass

- Some Eidola PRs finish, not enough to make the planet uncontrolled.

- Subduco arrester arrives, starts to kill everything, but finds a lot of builders protected against arrest. He kills what he can, but some protected PRs finish, because of protected builders. This lets Eidola turn planet uncontrolled because of cheat.

- During night there is some slabbing on both sides.

- Next morning cheating was reported, admins checked eidola events, decided it was a cheat and deleted those PRs which finished because of protected builders and Eidola placed slabs. They left everything else Eidola did untouched.

- Keir posts lies about situation to get time for builders adding etc.


Year 11 Day 199 8:30
Shouldn't Eidola have set their NPC's IF A/E resist method to "none" right before they started arresting their own?


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Ezekiel 23:19-20
Year 11 Day 199 17:49
Teniel, you removed around 9 of the 10 builders you used? So you never caused the facilities to stop building? Events say otherwise with the facilities being paused because all the NPCs were removed. Obviously they were then readded and events show you restarting up construction.

I did not remove all of Eidola's assets. I removed those PRs that were built with the 'exploit' NPCs. The PRs you finished prior to the planet going uncontrolled remain there, fully built. Your city slab you had there prior is there. The other facilities that were being built at the time are still there. I did delete all the NPCs that were exploited so that the defenders could see those that were able to be arrested, plus they had already tried to arrest and kill those NPCs. Besides, I don't think I saw 120 NPC arrest events in your faction events, so thats a bit skewed. It may also have been just the PR NPCs that were arrested and the hotels and other flats NPCs were not - I cannot remember that part of your events.

Basically I just reset the war to just before when the exploit occured, since that is not fair on the defenders that were there in time to start arresting your NPCs, but could not arrest some of them. I deleted 18 exploit NPCs, most of which had finished building and were at 0,0 in the city...

As for the ban, I said there maybe, depending on your answers. I did not threaten, just warning. You still have NPCs, PCs facilities and a slab there to work with.


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Year 11 Day 200 5:02
Luna Vox

Azarin, It WAS set to none.


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Year 11 Day 200 7:48
Luna, if it was set to none, how exactly did Eidola's NPCs resist arrest from Eidola, thus being exploited? Surprisingly, if there is no resist, arrests will be 100% successful and thus there's no failed arrests and no 24 hours immunity granted.

Also 18 exploit NPCs sounds a hell of a lot more than the 1 fail out of 120 Teniel reported...


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Ezekiel 23:19-20
Year 11 Day 200 8:03
Honestly, I can't keep track of what's true and what isn't myself, I was told 1 NPC, Talor then said it was three, Zhao then said it was 17, Ellias now says it was 18. Regardless, none of the NPCs should even have been able to resist arrest, why they did is anybody's guess - and even if they did, rules page says that wouldn't give them any a/e protection since they're in our faction - but since we couldn't get the off their build projects (our intention - to hide them in our ships for an hour or two until opponent went offline), they remained out in the open and ostensibly kept building...

Of course I also had an ASim accuse me of having LV (the pirate who arrested the builders) "join another faction to use OOF a/e, not IF a/e, just to give the a/e protection" -- I posted my "Joined Faction" memberlist info and told them to check themselves - she had never left Eidola and she used IF a/e, not OOF a/e. Turns out yeah, that was bullshit - then it was down to "Well why did you increase her privs in Eidola immediately after this happened", then I pasted the DMs of her pointing out that she couldn't restart the flats after our opponent went offline because she didn't have ASSIGN Facs privilege, just Build Facs - so I had to increase. So the "official" story has changed, as to what supposedly "happened", so many times I honestly have no idea. All I know is that the buildwar was all but a certainty in a Black Sun planet with 6 flats and nobody in Black Sun suspecting a thing (Our builders immediately got DMs from Black Sun calling them "shitheads" as soon as they saw construction events on 7 PRs and a PG and realised the planet would be uncontrolled in 24 hours, and Eidola-controlled in 48). After about 36 hours, when our opponents arrived on-planet and started arresting our builders to slow us down, we moved to bring our NPCs back aboard our ships to wait for their arrester to go offline...a completely standard practice in all buildwars. I woke up six hours after that, expecting to see the planet now Eidola-controlled or still uncontrolled since our flats were supposed to take it overnight after we placed the NPCs back on the jobs (point of interest, any NPCs we put "back on the job" was obviously one where a/e was SUCCESSFUL since we saved them and brought them on our ship, and rules page says (and admins agree) did NOT have a/e protection therefore.)

Instead, I log in to find that the crucial Personal Residences which should have finished overnight have been deleted, as has the 20mil worth of slabs we laid down, as have our NPCs, as have our RMs, nothing is refunded, the battle is simple thrown to our opponent because supposedly a few NPCs - through zero fault of Eidola and simply due to a/e code not working as the rules page says - spent a couple extra hours building when our opponent/ASims believe they should have been paused. A couple extra hours difference in seizing the planet is now "the planet is lost".

However, when I have 1 hour remaining on a facility that will win me the buildwar, and shitty coding causes a bug, the solution is to add an hour to the buildtime...not to delete the facility and forfeit the planet to the group that was practically guaranteed to lose it.

Before admins stepped in publicly accusing us of cheating due to their shitty code having flaws, we had (I believe, from memory) 6 finished PRs, another half-dozen PRs with 1-12 hours on each, a PG 24 hours from completion, about five hotels, and two 50-flats under construction, and eight slabs on the planet - while our opponent had their original 6 flats on the planet, another couple PRs and three hotels under construction, and two slabs on the planet.

Ellias came in, deleted all the relevant facilities that were taking control of the planet, removed our slabs but let our opponent keep building, Eidola was told not to build anymore on the planet "until things were figured out", and our opponent was allowed to go ahead and lay down the necessary flats and slabs to ensure that they wouldn't lose the planet...while we had to sit on our hands for two days with no buildings, RMs or NPCs or cash because they'd been deleted randomly.

The buildwar is obviously impossible now, even though we spent six weeks preparing for it, getting our Leadership 4 and Leadership 5 players out to the planet - and the plan was as simple as "They have 6 flats on the planet and nobody in the area. In 24 hours the planet will go uncontrolled when our first six flats finish, another ten flats will finish in the following 24 hours, as well as a power generator, meaning we will control the planet - our hotels and skyscrapers will finish shortly thereafter". But instead, we just get slapped by admins and told we're apparently not allowed to remove our own NPCs from our own construction jobs...even though the rules say that won't cause any a/e protection, and thus is allowed?


Edited By: Teniel Djo on Year 11 Day 200 8:13
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Year 11 Day 200 8:15
ANd now that the buildwar is lost, because we were told to sit on our ass for two days, while our opponents got to keep building (and thus increased the number of flats on the planet), we get the offer of "Hey, do you want us to refund or replace three personal residences for you?"

Not a whole hell of a lot of use now, except I can sell them on CPM for 200k apiece I suppose, hm?


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Year 11 Day 200 8:36
Davidus Kla


Few facts:

None of the NPCs should even have been able to resist arrest, why they did is anybody's guess - but since we couldn't get the off their build projects (our intention - to hide them in our ships for an hour or two until opponent went offline), they remained out in the open and ostensibly kept building... 


Such a coincidence that not-reproducable "bug" happens exactly on NPCs which are crucial for Eidola to get planet uncontrolled.

When arrester arrived, we still had control of the planet and eidolan facilities were fully staffed by builders. They did never "hide" a single NPC, arrester cleaned the whole city except PROTECTED BY EXPLOIT builders, which consequently let eidola to turn the planet uncontrolled.


Ellias came in, deleted all the relevant facilities that were taking control of the planet, removed our slabs but let our opponent keep building, Eidola was told not to build anymore on the planet "until things were figured out", and our opponent was allowed to go ahead and lay down the necessary flats and slabs to ensure that they wouldn't lose the planet...while we had to sit on our hands for two days with no buildings, RMs or NPCs or cash because they'd been deleted randomly. 


Lie again. All our flats Keir refers to were placed BEFORE Ellias stepped in. Also during those days eidola constantly kept adding more builders to facilities which were left untouched and are still a threat.

"They have 6 flats on the planet and nobody in the area. In 24 hours the planet will go uncontrolled when our first six flats finish, another ten flats will finish in the following 24 hours, as well as a power generator, meaning we will control the planet - our hotels and skyscrapers will finish shortly thereafter". 


Except we were close enough to be there in time. So you decided to cheat, make an insurance, and immunize your builders. Fail.




What really irks me is that in this game someone does something which will get anyone else banned. But because he is good at lying, twisting what happened and coming with multiple unbelievable versions of excuses he gets away with it.

This game has rules, which allow us to have lots of fun. Everyone playing against these rules should be punished, because he is wrecking the game experience for everyone else. You cannot cheat...unless you are Keir. You cannot lie about your cheating and get away with it...unless you are Keir. Nice precedent.



Year 11 Day 200 9:53
Gunther Innis Tennor

Now to clarify some things but not all because i was not the main person investigating the issue.

Keir was not directly involved with the NPCs in question. He was not the arresting person which caused them to get the 24 hour protection.

Before admins stepped in publicly accusing us of cheating due to their shitty code having flaws

- Keir
 


Which Admins were they? All I've seen publicly was the Sim News and a single post from Ellias...unless there has been talk somewhere else I'm not aware of.

Of course I also had an ASim accuse me of having LV (the pirate who arrested the builders) "join another faction to use OOF a/e, not IF a/e, just to give the a/e protection"

- Keir
 


Was it an accusation or was it asking? Just because you interpret it one way does not make it a case of accusation.

Ellias came in, deleted all the relevant facilities that were taking control of the planet

- Keir
 


Yet again, only the facilities connected with the protected NPCs. The rest were left alone.

a few NPCs - through zero fault of Eidola and simply due to a/e code not working as the rules page says - spent a couple extra hours building when our opponent/ASims believe they should have been paused.

- Keir
 


As many as 17 to 18 does not equal a few.

threaten to ban innocent parties?

- Keir
 


Saying that someone would be banned for cheating is not threatening to ban innocent people.

There is more to nitpick but I tire of quoting you.

All these little tweaks to the truth are your attempt to sway the public to your side with falsehoods and to create distrust for the games Administrators. This is a very common tactic of yours and is not appreciated. Perhaps you have forgotten that I spent a considerable amount of time in Eidola and witnessed your calculated attacks against SWC personnel and your bragging about supposedly getting people removed from SWCs staff. You have become quite predictable.

Did I not warn you recently about dancing in the grey area and that it wont be tolerated? I don't look at being an Admin as a popularity contest so once you cross that line with SWC on my watch, I will have no problem pulling the trigger.


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Robotic Japanese Toilet: I give you...happy poopy time.
Fry: Sorry, you know too much.
Year 11 Day 200 18:16
Teniel, you say you had a couple of people there to build with their high Ld. That means you had at least 2 bulks with mats to build. Are you telling me that you did not bring along additional RMs in case the planet owners happened ot be nearby or get nearby friends to fly over and build some flats once you started building? Especially since 2 bulks could hold way more materials than a few PRs, a PG or 2 and some hotels etc.

So your '2 days' hanging around not being able to do anything, seems completely wrong. I suppose yes, you had what, 3/4 PRs worth of mats removed when I destroyed them. Means you have room to rebuild those, and would have more room on your city slab you still have to build more. Especially if said opponet was about to go offline etc.

Even if you arresting the NPCs and failing was unintentional, I believe you can manually pause the facilities in the inventory (heck you even did it with them just beforehand), since you obviously knew that not being able to arrest your own NPCs was a bug, and that said facilities would have been paused if you could arrest them. So on that point, you willingly used a bug to your own advantage, when there was an option to step around it until you had contacted one of the administration about it. I don't remember any other admins talking about you telling them such a thing.

To be honest I like others have seen you bitch and whine to (and about) the admin a lot. Sometimes it is true, sometimes not. Especially when things go away from your plans.

Keep pushing and I will ban you for 30 days for admin harrasment. Especially when Sin has already said that if you start another bunch of PRs he would set the construction ETA to the last hour or so like it would of been prior to you arresting NPCs etc, but have you done so? I don't think so. Just whining for the sake of whining.


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Year 11 Day 200 21:00
Xavze Zavan

>This arrest protection does not apply to NPCs of your own faction so that it can not be abused to protect them against arrest by another faction

Is it safe to assume this is not working as intended?


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How would you like to pay income tax EVERY month?
Year 11 Day 200 22:49
Gitane, to translate your rant - that is "How dare you say we threatened to ban people, take that back or I'll ban u", yes?

Ellias, our Bulks were not full - we brougth what was necessary to win the planet - and we received a DM from Davidus informing us that he had gone to admins and we had to stop building facilities until it was sorted out.


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Year 11 Day 200 23:00
I believe the key word that you chose to omit in your "translation", Keir, was "innocent".


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"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 11 Day 200 23:25
And yet the planet still goes uncontrolled...so all it did was delay it to the point where it likely would of gotten to anyway. Feel free to ask for the mats that were lost if you want.


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Year 11 Day 200 23:46
Having seen the supposed "evidence", I am still of opinion that the asims have overreacted.

However I am also disappointed that following 17 repeated arrest failures with the resist setting of "None" it was not reported to the bug base by anybody.

If you do encounter anything weird like this, when in a situation that might require admin intervention, e.g. an arrest of a player or a build war, you should cover your arse by opening a private bug when you spot anything unusual, such as this.


Year 11 Day 201 6:07
However I am also disappointed that following 17 repeated arrest failures with the resist setting of "None" it was not reported to the bug base by anybody. 


It is only a bug if you believe Teniel's rants in this thread. I have not heard of anyone else experiencing it anywhere, and as you said, it's not reported to the bug base. This makes me think that the truth has somewhat been twisted along the way.


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Ezekiel 23:19-20
Year 11 Day 201 9:19
You think we're secretly hackers? Go arrest your own builders working on a tavern jackass, apparently you CAN fail - and no, it wouldn't be your fault.

Ellias, I can ask for the RMs for three PRs, I can't ask for the 30mil it cost to lay those slabs you deleted, I can't ask for Black Sun's facilities to be set back three days in construction,I can't ask for your actual interference to be undone...I can just ask for three PRs? Fine, give me three PRs in my city, we'll start there.


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Year 11 Day 201 9:44
You think we're secretly hackers? Go arrest your own builders working on a tavern jackass, apparently you CAN fail - and no, it wouldn't be your fault. 


I never said you're a hacker. Just I know that you're a serial liar. You lie about anything and everything, IC and OOC, all to suit your agenda. It means naturally anything you say is taken with a pinch of salt. Hell, already in this thread you claimed 1 out of 120 were affected, now it appears that was a lie too with 17 out of 120 being affected.

Maybe you did suffer due to a bug. But you also did not report said bug. Therefore, you knew of it AND benefited. By my definition, that's bug using. At no point before the admins caught and punished you did you come forward and scream "bug!", therefore I must presume that you knew it was a bug, but also saw it's potential benefits and unlikelihood of being discovered and figured it was the perfect crime.

If you had told someone "hey, we arrested our NPCs, but they mysteriously resisted when they shouldn't have, and now are protected. Please fix this because I would hate for anyone to wrongly think we're abusing bugs here" then this issue would be non-existant.

The fact of the matter is, I could go out of my way to prove that you were encountering a bug. But what I cannot do is go back in time and make you guys report it before you benefited. Can I?


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Ezekiel 23:19-20
Year 11 Day 201 11:24
No, I know why the NPCs were set as "none" but still resisting, it's a bug. And his story is perfectly plausible.


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