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Year 11 Day 266 1:41
Timon Nin

Been prospecting a lot... and have read a lot, still I got a few questions.


1. I have read posts that state you cannot EVER find a new RM deposit after a particular lvl. 5 ComOps operator with 12 groundhogs has prospected. I never have but I have heard of people (in IRC) saying both. Which is true?

2. Same for scanning with more than 12 vehicles. Can it be done, or was that something related to the prospecting bug earlier this year?

3. I have also heard both about RM allocation. From the rules it looks like it's been "rolled for" at the time of the scan, or is it already a set DB variable before scanning (potentially for every planet in the galaxy)?

4. Can two prospectors scan the same square at the same time?


Thanks.


Edited By: Timon Nin on Year 11 Day 266 1:41
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Year 11 Day 266 4:10
From what I've gathered about prospecting, all terrain has its deposits rolled for as it were when they were made. Using the equations on the rules page it generates a certain threshold that needs to be met with the prospecting equation before it becomes available. So if you scan with 12 vehicles and com ops of 5, and don't find anything its highly unlikely scanning again will with the same number (there is a random modifier to the equation).

Come R&D it may be possible to have more sensors on prospecting vehicles which may allow you to scan 'empty' terrains again and try to breach the threshold. But for the near future (read next few years) if you fail with a maxed out setup, its techinically empty.


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Year 11 Day 266 4:21
Teyacapan Quetzalxochitl

(there is a random modifier to the equation)

You shouldn't tell people fairy tales.


Year 11 Day 266 4:54
1. I like to think all squares have deposits, you need need to try long enough to find them. Whats true to that I don't know.

2. No, squadron max is 12.

3. No idea, but I guess its rolled for it when you prospect it.

4. Again no idea, never tried it:D


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Benedicta Per Gratiam Jou
MeandMine.png
--> Lvl 5 FI Operator - Free Service <--

Year 11 Day 266 5:35
Timon Nin

See my issue is this, and neither the rules, wiki, or lore are specific here:

If each square has during planet creation given a 1=some or a 0=none for RM deposits, and a subsequent roll (as part of the prospecting process) determines if it is found, what and how big it is, then re-scanning a 0-coordinate will NEVER find anything, no matter how often and with what configuration you scan. (I will refer to this as the predestined model)

If, however, every time you scan it is rolled IF there is a deposit, than re-scanning will potentially ALWAYS find something. The probability to find something is greater than zero. (chance model)

Chance of finding = ( 1 + Total Sensors(Comp Op/30+0.05) ) * Terrain Prob  


Notice also:

A percentage for all materials found on the terrain type is calculated and a random selected (0-100).
IF Random is in the cumulative percentage range THEN select material type ELSE check next material on list  


The fact that we do have a formula that calculates with terrain probability makes me think that we do have a chance model. (Also, the predestined model would require a more extensive DB: For each planet you would need to remember IF there is a deposit, and then WITH WHAT CONFIGURATION it was scanned the last time it was scanned; the predestined model also would mean we would run out of RMs at some point).

Somewhere in the archives somebody mentioned they re-scanned their planet and got a very high success rate finding RMs on almost every coordinate. That was, however, due to the alleged prospecting bug, and supposedly fixed. Nevertheless that would mean that the basic system is based on the chance model.

In other words, if we are in a chance universe you can perpetually scan one coordinate with the same guy and the same gear and eventually find something (unless, and the rules don't state that, the same scan configuration is an automatic 0 scan). Comments?

EDIT:

Elias... when you say "what you gathered," do you know? I am not doubting you, I just want to get some definitive answers.

Lilith, have you personally found something on a coordinate that you yourself with the same gear re-scanned after the first scan came out negative?


Edited By: Timon Nin on Year 11 Day 266 5:40
Year 11 Day 266 6:45
To be honest I am wondering the same thing. I keep telling everyone that each square has a deposit, its just matter of time to find it, though thats just how I understand the rules. I might be wrong.

And no, personally I didn't yet, I never tried it as I have been always told to move on and dont re-scan. Though I will try it next time I am sniffing rocks:D

But I heard factions are doing it, re prospecting planets and finding new deposits. Would be nice for admins to give us prospectors some final and clear answer:D


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Benedicta Per Gratiam Jou
MeandMine.png
--> Lvl 5 FI Operator - Free Service <--

Year 11 Day 266 6:57
Kuro Neko

Have a look here http://www.swcombine.com/forum/thread.php?thread=41350&page=0 to see a previous discussion.

Check out Teyacapan Quetzalxochitl's post at Year 11 Day 166 13:58 with the visual aid. That's just about the best explanation I've seen of this issue.



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There is no god but Ara... All will walk his path...
The Faithful of Ara <--- (Warning: music link)
Year 11 Day 266 8:59
Timon Nin

That was helpful, thanks. I actually read it before.

Ohrr Grek's summary then is correct?


1. RM allocation (if, what, and how much) and thresholds were set prior to prospecting.
2. Prospector's sensor level is checked against that value to determine IF deposit is found.
3. Re-scanning after a maximum rig configuration will NOT find anything (either because threshold is not met, or there is no deposit)


Consequently, reports about people finding deposits by means of a re-scan (that is with lvl 5/12 hogs) are either bogus or bug related?








Edited By: Timon Nin on Year 11 Day 266 9:23
Year 11 Day 266 12:38
Kuro Neko


Ohrr Grek's summary then is correct?

1. RM allocation (if, what, and how much) and thresholds were set prior to prospecting.
2. Prospector's sensor level is checked against that value to determine IF deposit is found.
3. Re-scanning after a maximum rig configuration will NOT find anything (either because threshold is not met, or there is no deposit)
 


Well, unless I see the code or people post good counter-examples I'm not currently re-prospecting slabs unless I increase the Comp-ops and/or sensors used.


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RSani002.gif
There is no god but Ara... All will walk his path...
The Faithful of Ara <--- (Warning: music link)
Year 11 Day 266 12:50
Rescan with same stats is impossible, but *did* occur during a bugage. So while it should be impossible, it did happen at least once.

While it is almost guaranteed that if you tried to find every deposit, you can do so, it would cost you a lot and take a long time.
Start with a comp ops of 0, and a single FK-7 and add FK-7s until 12, then switch to 5 groundhogs, 6, 7 up to 12.
That is 20 scans.
Then switch to level 1.
level 2.. 3.. 4.. and finally 5.
You can get a maximum of 120 scans with a chance of finding a deposit, and since the bare minimum chance of 2.122 x terrain of 1% = 2.122% of finding
comops.jpg?t=1282505031

Sooo with the chances always increase in % from 2.122 (compOps 0, single FK-7, glacier) to a maximum of 4.81% (CompOps 5, 12 groundhogs, glacier)
if you get 6 different people with each different level (0-6) and have them scan in sequence (all 120 possible scans) until something gets found, odds are you are almost guaranteed to find every deposit if you are willing to put in the time and resources and manpower.
Well, perhaps on glacier it isnt almost guaranteed, but it is very likely. Rock terrain it is almost a guarantee


Realistically I might recommend scanning with comp ops 4 and running through all 20 scans, then comp ops 5. You might be able to cut out all of the 4 previous levels.
However, once you scan higher, you're stuck with it and cant go back again


Year 11 Day 266 12:58
Timon Nin

So, that means the Planet DB includes

RM deposit 0/1
Kind of deposit
Size of deposit
threshold to find deposit 0-100
last (highest) scan threshold 0-100
deposit found 0/1

And there may presumably be a script that re-shuffles deposits.


Edited By: Timon Nin on Year 11 Day 266 12:58
Year 11 Day 266 12:59
Teyacapan Quetzalxochitl

So Arch, do you actually have confirmation that the seed is reset when you prospect with a higher level/sensors, or is that a blind guess on your part?


Year 11 Day 266 13:04
Timon Nin

My guess the DB just remembers what your "prospecting score" is and checks it against the threshold. So there would not be a reset, and why a rescan (with a lvl 5/12 hogs) cannot find a new deposit.

Assuming of course that all the info (predestined model) is true.

Still hoping a SIM can confirm all this.


Edited By: Timon Nin on Year 11 Day 266 13:04
Year 11 Day 266 13:05
Teyacapan Quetzalxochitl

Yes, that's been my assumption as well. So far I haven't seen any concrete proof of the opposite.


Year 11 Day 266 13:29
Kuro Neko

Timon, if the predestined model is true then DB would not need to remember your past prospecting scores as it would work out your current score the moment you started prospecting, and that is all that is needed.

And while you were waiting 8 hours or so for the prospect to finish, the result would have been 'known' from the start, based on your comp-op skills and sensors, and the terrain.

Arch, apart from the Rules page (which may be badly worded to imply 'chance') do you have any evidence of people re-prospecting with lower comp-ops/sensors and finding a deposit? That would be possible with a chance model and not the predestined model. What you describe, increasing comp-ops and sensors does not rule out the predestined model.

I'm still with Teyacapan Quetzalxochitl on this one.


Edited By: Kuro Neko on Year 11 Day 266 13:31
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There is no god but Ara... All will walk his path...
The Faithful of Ara <--- (Warning: music link)
Year 11 Day 266 13:34
Timon Nin

Kuro, you are of course right. My bad.

If the predestined model is true, than Arch's suggestion would not increase the probability to find the deposit at all and just be a waste of time.

In terms of server load, the predestined model would make more sense as it does not necessitate complex computations every time you prospect, just one equation to determine your sensors score, which had to be checked against the threshold value. And one equation for time spent prospecting.


Year 11 Day 266 13:37
Kuro Neko

Occam's razor :-)


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There is no god but Ara... All will walk his path...
The Faithful of Ara <--- (Warning: music link)
Year 11 Day 268 10:44
Isma Aaln Serth

Also when a mine is depleted of a deposit, one could re-prospect that square and find a new deposit. This may have changed though or the new material deposit will just be another rock ivory. :(


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Year 11 Day 268 12:50
Timon Nin

Could and ASim or Sim confirm (or deny) this, plz?

1. RM allocation (if, what, and how much) and thresholds were set prior to prospecting.
2. Prospector's sensor level is checked against that value to determine IF deposit is found.
3. Re-scanning after a maximum rig configuration will NOT find anything (either because threshold is not met, or there is no deposit)



Year 11 Day 268 18:39
Umbeck Traxer

I don't know of anyone non-bug that prospected lower after someone. I know I've even prospected with fewer sensors and it never worked too.

The way the rules are written it makes no sense for it to be a threshold, and chance makes sense. However the rules are terribly written and I can still find typos even after all this time.
"The chance to find a deposit depends of the following" depends ON.
SOMEONE is bound to know, and I feel like it is critical information for us to be aware of, since it makes a very big difference.

As it stands now there is much more to gain by assuming Arch's model of chance, and much more to lose if the predetermined model is incorrect (losing your chances FOREVER if you scan ops 5 x 12 hogs.)


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