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Year 12 Day 186 8:13
Teyacapan Quetzalxochitl

I read and understood it. You need to work on the second part.


Year 12 Day 186 8:13
Sithe Vapshe

what I find a little interesting is this forums name is "questions for Admins,,, yet despite the popularity of the thread and the over wealming nay saying going on unless I am mistaken not a single admin has replied to this thread or done anything to fix there blunder...... So where area ll the admins who are supposedly monitoring these forums?


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Kill 1 person your a murderer, Kill a thousand your a warlord, Kill em all and your a god.
Year 12 Day 186 8:18
Kai Gurago

Ok so lemme get this straight so I can understand whats going on.

Someone lied about getting credits, trolled the victim of the scam , then the scammer gets banned?

I fail to see the ban able offense.


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Year 12 Day 186 8:54
You and I both Kai.


Year 12 Day 186 10:00
I just received a copy of Jenos' post in General talk, and I call, once again, bullshit.

I never once blamed a bug. At no point have I ever said anything remotely like'It's a bug' If there is a rule saying that you can't say the word bug in an irc conversation(Which is the only evidence, and can be faked, as has been shown regularly) then can someone please point me to it?

BUG

Do I get a permaban now? OMG, I said bug!

This is absoloutley ridiculous. I did not 'Scam using OOC means' if Kir, and other people in the traders lounge decided to say bug, how on earth is that my fault?

This is, as stated by many before me, an entirely IC matter between Kir Jax and myself. The fact that some others saw the need to stick their nose in has nothing to do with me, and banning me based on it is beyond stupid.

So, let's recap.

Shuji Shizuka=banned
Evidence= a copy/paste of an irc log, that hints at an implication.

Wow. I can really see how that's compelling evidence. I'm really glad that we have such just and intelligent sims working on important things like this.



Year 12 Day 186 10:31
Teyacapan Quetzalxochitl

So you're claiming Kir Jax made up a log to try and get you banned?


Year 12 Day 186 10:39
Siarica Aylina

[20:48] [KirJax] hello, I know this is most likely repeating myself but I have not got an answer as yet. Is there a bug that would stop someone receiving credits or stop it from showing up on the Events page?
[20:51] [@Jenos-Laptop] have you tried testing it?
[20:52] [@Jenos-Laptop] last I saw, not all credit transactions show up on the events, but they should do on the transactions page
[20:52] [@T[a]lor] Not to our knowledge, but there is a precedent of a ban if someone tries to scam saying credits didn't show up.
[20:53] [@T[a]lor] To that end, Jenos: http://www.swcombine.com/forum/thread.php?thread=47854&page=0
[20:53] [KirJax] yes, Shuji Shizuka implies that there is a bug. He is using this to steal from me 

And here is the part where everything goes wrong: Kir Jax saying that Shuji broke the rules. Notice that at 20:53, both Talor posts the link and Kir complains.

Now, look at this:
[20:54] [@T[a]lor] Should be an easy enough a matter.
[20:57] [KirJax] just wanted to know
[21:00] [@Jenos-Laptop] Year 12 Day 181
[21:00] [@Jenos-Laptop] 22:21 Kir Jax 3,250,000 for X-Ceptors
[21:00] [@Jenos-Laptop] hijacked his account
[21:01] [@Jenos-Laptop] how long was the last ban, Talor? 


Exactly 7 minutes after Talor posts the link to the thread and Kir complains, Jenos performed the following actions:

- Reading the whole thread, carefully analyzing what Kir and Shuji discussed.
- Hijacking Shuji's account, checking his inventory.
- Deciding to ban Shuji.

I'm not making any conclusions, I just love how 7 minutes are long enough for deprivating someone of 30 days of playing.


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Year 12 Day 186 11:04
Helena Gladio

Because he didn't want to make a snap judgement?

I\m with Teyacapan Quetzalxochitl. Hinting at bugs ingame is OOC, and justifies an investigation.If he wanted to keep it ic he should just say: I didn't receive the credits.


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mystats.php?uid=c3968

Shout out to my fellow Falleen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco
Year 12 Day 186 11:18
Cait Catra

i love how as Jenos begins to introduce alternative ideas, talor jumps in with "no bug, but we can banz!" i'm sensing a little BanHammer withdrawal...


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"It never ceases to amaze me, the things that very small people can find to make themselves feel very big."
Year 12 Day 186 11:27
Helena that's the point. At no point did I ever blame a bug.


Year 12 Day 186 11:38
You implied it with that IRC quote unless you are saying it is fake.


Year 12 Day 186 12:20
Give it time and we can grudge match Jenos alongside Redbat, Niels and Seele (We need a 4th guy!)


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Year 12 Day 186 12:23
Not just implying it with an IRC log (which COULD have been faked by Kir), but going out of your way to create a screenshot that supported the possibility of a bug.

Next time, just say "Sorry, bud. You got scammed.", and leave the OOC realm of bug possibilities alone.


Year 12 Day 186 12:31
Siarica Aylina

After analyzing the logs more intensely, there is an obvious admin abuse breaking the IC/OOC separation.
[20:48] [KirJax] hello, I know this is most likely repeating myself but I have not got an answer as yet. Is there a bug that would stop someone receiving credits or stop it from showing up on the Events page?
[20:51] [@Jenos-Laptop] have you tried testing it?
[20:52] [@Jenos-Laptop] last I saw, not all credit transactions show up on the events, but they should do on the transactions page
[20:54] [@T[a]lor] Should be an easy enough a matter.
[20:57] [KirJax] just wanted to know
[21:00] [@Jenos-Laptop] Year 12 Day 181
[21:00] [@Jenos-Laptop] 22:21 Kir Jax 3,250,000 for X-Ceptors
[21:00] [@Jenos-Laptop] hijacked his account

[21:01] [@Jenos-Laptop] how long was the last ban, Talor? 


Let's look at the spying rules:
You may not:
Directly access the private accounts of other members on group or faction websites (including message boards, wiki projects, databases, etc.) for the intent of gathering information, even if granted permission by that member.

The admins directly accessed Shuji's account in the sole purpose of gathering IC information. Even if they are aSims, they do NOT have to interfere with the game.

I asked the aSims last year if a specific player was still active, since his profile was set on private. He was most likely inactive for at least a full year. The aSims told me, "you'll not get this information, this is personnal."


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Year 12 Day 186 12:36
Teyacapan Quetzalxochitl

I get that you're trolling, but still;

The spying rules apply to players, not to the administration. (though they're certainly not allowed to just hand out what they see to everyone they talk to..)

The intent wasn't to gather in-character information, the intent was to ascertain whether there was a display bug.

Logging in to an account to check whether there is actually a bug is not at all the same as giving someone information on a player just because they ask for it.


Year 12 Day 186 12:40
My credit balance is IC information. Kir sending me credits is an IC action.


Year 12 Day 186 12:46
When it comes to game mechanics (your credit balance, your bio, your faction, etc.) and the possibility of bugs, it is ALL OCC.

If Asim were never allowed to access others accounts for information, I would imagine there would still be people stuck on entities from years ago.

So no, from an Asim perspective (who don't have characters), it is OOC information.


Year 12 Day 186 12:55
Talor Dakari

i love how as Jenos begins to introduce alternative ideas, talor jumps in with "no bug, but we can banz!" i'm sensing a little BanHammer withdrawal...

- Cait Catra
 


Erhm... I had read the thread earlier, and seen Shuji's faked screenshot of events, as such was also aware of the situation and was 99% sure there was no bug. In addition to this, I also vaguely recalled Xabia been banned in the past for scamming with bug being a pretense of not receiving credits (and as such receiving 2x the credits). And due to the similarity I decided to put it up in the discussion, my intent being to provide as much information on the case as possible and as usual. And I also said it was a bit different scenario back in Xabia's case.

Full log

«22:48:44» « join » {KirJax} {~KirJax@SWC-IRC.E143A762CCCC31.SWC}
«22:50:23» {KirJax} hello, I know this is most likely repeating myself but I have not got an answer as yet. Is there a bug that would stop someone receiving credits or stop it from showing up on the Events page?
«22:53:42» {@Jenos-Laptop} have you tried testing it?
«22:54:13» {@Jenos-Laptop} last I saw, not all credit transactions show up on the events, but they should do on the transactions page
«22:54:38» {@T[a]lor} Not to our knowledge, but there is a precedent of a ban if someone tries to scam saying credits didn't show up.
«22:55:14» {@T[a]lor} To that end, Jenos: http://www.swcombine.com/forum/thread.php?thread=47854&page=0
«22:55:34» {KirJax} yes, Shuji Shizuka implies that there is a bug. He is using this to steal from me
«22:56:34» {@T[a]lor} Should be an easy enough a matter.
«22:59:53» {KirJax} just wanted to know
«23:02:50» {@Jenos-Laptop} Year 12 Day 181
«23:02:51» {@Jenos-Laptop} 22:21 Kir Jax 3,250,000 for X-Ceptors
«23:02:55» {@Jenos-Laptop} hijacked his account
«23:03:20» {@Jenos-Laptop} how long was the last ban, Talor?
«23:03:49» {@T[a]lor} 30 days, Xabia dimentos was banned... albeit I think it was a bit different scenario for he tried getting double the money saying it was a bug
«23:04:02» {@Ran} BAN HIM! >.>
«23:04:50» {@T[a]lor} Xabia Dimentos - Banned. 2009?9?3? 8:57 Star Wars Combine????. Banned for attempting to use OOC means to scam people IC. ...
«23:06:19» {@T[a]lor} http://www.swcombine.com/community/news/simnews/simnews2.php?display=2&postID=19834
«23:06:33» {@T[a]lor} hrm
«23:06:34» {@T[a]lor} wasn't that one
«23:07:37» {@T[a]lor} shame we don't have a search in the simnews
«23:07:57» {KirJax} thank you for help
«23:08:41» « quit » {KirJax} {~KirJax@SWC-IRC.E143A762CCCC31.SWC} Quit:
«23:08:52» {@T[a]lor} http://www.swcombine.com/forum/thread.php?thread=36233&page=0
«23:11:07» {@Jenos-Laptop} done
«23:11:37» {@T[a]lor} hey
«23:12:07» {@T[a]lor} do you pay attention at all? =p
«23:12:30» {@T[a]lor} anyways, please do give a look at that thread
«23:12:54» {@Jenos-Laptop} enjoy :) 


Anyhow, I did remember the ban length wrong (7 days was correct one, my bad on that one... Also the sim news I gave in the log was the correct one), besides that, I'd like to point out I did ask him to give a look at other threads, instead of blindingly following my hunch on a case that occurred a couple years back... Which he should've done, as it's the responsibility of the person swinging the banhammer to do so, instead he simply ignored my requests. So as you may notice, I'm not suffering from any banhammer withdrawal, simply try to be helpful... For Jenos could've fetched these same URLs himself, I trust.


Year 12 Day 186 12:56
Shuji's main claim was that he did not get the event, which Jenos admitted happens, did anyone bother to tell Shuji to check his Credit Transaction page? When Jenos hijacked his account and found the transaction, did he take that evidence to Shuji and given him the chance to carry out his claim of returning the credits?

Did Shuji try and scam Kir? That's something only Shuji knows
Did Kir miss out on some ships? Yes, happens all the time
Did Jenos use OOC means to 'solve' an IC trade-related matter? Partially, he used his powers to verify the money was there but didn't go to Shuji to get his side of the matter

And the big thing, imo, is Jenos basically bragging about hijacking Shuji's account, he did not need to say that


Year 12 Day 186 13:30
Ryan Roche

You guys are a bunch of whiners, I'm so sick of all this recent OOC/IC "separation" problems which everyone seems to be so proficient at. What is there to analyse exactly? Everyone is being subjective to his cause, you aren't even looking at both sides.

To look at the logs and try to find every small loophole that Jenos might have said is so pathetic and frankly it's also very typical of you Siarica. I thought you were done with all this "abuse the system" sh*t. Again and again it's the same people who are always less fond of SWC and its people and always try to complain and make it harder on the administration. "Oh look at this text it's an abuse!" "Oh I said 'bug' now they will ban me!".

It's all black and white to you guys where in fact there are many more levels you don't consider.


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~Ryan

Ryan's Arts Workshop
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