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Year 12 Day 206 21:13
Korvas Varik

So after reading the post about Tar and Cait I have walked away with the feeling that it is perfectly okay to break the rules about arresting, releasing, and rearresting someone as long as I can prove that I have an IC reason (A want for the IC property, a simple NPC child, of the arrested person) Is this correct?

http://www.swcombine.com/community/news/simnews/simnews2.php?display=2&postID=21891


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varik1
Year 12 Day 206 21:25
Shuji Shizuka

As per the thread name more than the post, can this now be applied to other rules?

"Oh yeah, about that illegial multi....see, he's my characters identical cloned twin brother, that's an IC reason, you can't ban me!"

"I know I broke the rule that prohibits you from using the galaxy map to find an item, but, well....the IC voice inside my head told me that it was okay. IC excuse, no ban!"

"Golden Rule? Oh sorry, my charachter's a lone cop who (max steel voice)dosen't play by the rules. That's an IC reason, no ban for me!"

....are a few possible ways that this could be abused.


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This user is currently in the process of moving, and so is semi-inactive.
Year 12 Day 206 21:44
have you thought to find out what the reason was.... i know i was pretty pissed when i first saw it till Kana went and talked to Jenos and got the story.... maybe you should try that


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can wisdom ever really overcome violence?
Ayasig-1.png

Year 12 Day 206 21:46
Korvas Varik

Ummm I did and I got it from the person in question and not the Asim handling it but thanks for your suggestion.


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varik1
Year 12 Day 206 21:56
The rules are not being broken. The arrested person can still drop their character after 21 days, the same as if they had been arrested the whole time. They are not being "griefed", and the arresting individual was not motivated by a desire to prevent them from being able to play the game.

Simply hanging an IC excuse on a desire to break the rules isn't going to fly. But if you don't believe me, feel free to test the common sense of our ASims, assuming you're prepared to sit out any resulting ban without complaint.


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"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 12 Day 206 22:01
Korvas Varik

Respectfully Hal, I have to disagree. Tar and Cait's excuse was they wanted an IC item from Gwen. Can that be proved? I could say the same thing about anybody I arrest. All I am saying is the system is flawed and cant be fixed and thanks to a certain post it is out there for those that didn't know. I always have an IC reason for arresting people and now I always have an IC reason for releasing them and re arresting them.


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varik1
Year 12 Day 206 22:03
well.... they can look for an inventory event... that would be proof.... everything in swc is flawed and can be manipulated but events dont lie


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can wisdom ever really overcome violence?
Ayasig-1.png

Year 12 Day 206 22:05
Korvas Varik

She was arrested again. Events dont show that she looked for the item or thought about making it over, only that she has it. This excuse is flimsy at best. I still stand by my previous post. Anybody I arrest in the future has something I want and I will arrest, release, and rearrest them at my leisure


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varik1
Year 12 Day 206 22:08
nor can you prove that she didnt just change her mind or try to use it just to get someone in trouble cause she got arrested cause she wasnt careful....

i dont think you see people trying to get her banned.... but then again your taking sides rather then investigating (only getting part of the story dosent count)


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can wisdom ever really overcome violence?
Ayasig-1.png

Year 12 Day 206 22:09
As I said, Korvas, feel free to try it and see how well it works. It also in no way prevents the person petitioning to be allowed to drop character at 21 days from the original arrest.

So, really, the system works as intended, and attempting to exploit it is going to do you no good and potential harm.


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"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 12 Day 206 22:09
Korvas Varik

and for the record, the item in question is an NPC child that Gwen had with the previous character of "Cait". So separation of character much?


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varik1
Year 12 Day 206 22:18
Shuji Shizuka

Korvas, you've got to remember that seperation of character is a crucial part of swc, there are even, like, rules to prevent things like this from happening.

Oh...

pfft.jpg


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This user is currently in the process of moving, and so is semi-inactive.
Year 12 Day 206 23:13
Korvas, for full disclosure I will post the logs between myself and Kilian (Gwen) so you may draw conclusions based on what actually took place between us. This is specifically to address the following fact:

I got it from the person in question and not the Asim handling it but thanks for your suggestion.

- Korvas
 


If anything in my assessment and handling of the situation seems out of line, i'm open to discussing that in a fair and reasonable way.

Logs - (I have underlined several statements I made to help emphasis my view of things in the situation)

[09:55] -Kilian> Kosh caught me, gave me to black sun. Tar unarrested me then rearrested me, then yesterday, after 11 days, I was unarrested to do something I wasn't going to do in the first place, then rearrested me again. And it's fine. It's more of an annoyance than a major, life altering problem
01[10:01] -Arete> Tar spoke to me about this yesterday actually. According to him, he unarrested you this latest time hoping you would makeover something to him. Since you didn't, he re-arrested you. Yes?
[10:02] -Kilian> Why would he do that though? He could have asked before hand and I would have told him no.
01[10:03] -Arete> -Tar> I left a PC arrested for two weeks, then realsed hoping they`d be nice and make over the thing I want made over.
01[10:04] -Arete> -Tar> Regarding the girl, she politely told me to get bent so I re-arrested.
[10:04] -Kilian> 11 days is not two weeks.
01[10:04] -Arete> The way it appears to me is this - first un-arrest/re-arrest was to transfer custody from Kosh to himself. Second un-arrest/re-arrest was to give you an opportunity to makeover whatever.
[10:05] -Kilian> Alright. Thank you for your time then.
01[10:05] -Arete> If he does it again, then it starts edging into simply prolonging your arrest period before you can become an NPC and then it becomes an issue.
01[10:05] -Arete> But for now, it appears to me legitimate so far.
01[10:06] -Arete> but if there are any further issues with being un-arrested/re-arrested, please do let me know asap.
[10:06] -Kilian> Can I be manually dropped?
01[10:07] -Arete> That could happen, however I don't see it as being appropriate yet. Tar hasn't seemed to be un-arresting you simply to prolong your custody before being able to drop yourself.
[10:08] -Kilian> Mmk.


At this point I was beginning to hear comments about my supposed bias in favor of Tar. To wit, the following conversation ensued:

01[11:01] -Arete> [12:08] -.Kilian> Tar clearly has Arete in his back pocket.
01[11:01] -Arete> If you feel like that is true, I would like you to say that to me directly.
01[11:02] -Arete> I took what both of you had to say and came to the conclusion I felt reasonable given the circumstances.
[11:02] -Kilian> No. I say things when i'm upset. I don't know. I'm just angry.
01[11:03] -Arete> Claiming a bias because you don't like the answer is a rather unfair thing to me.
[11:03] -Kilian> You're right.
[11:03] -Kilian> Like I said, I'm just Angry.
01[11:03] -Arete> Especially when it comes down to the fact that IF there's anything found to be wrong, it would be against Tar.
01[11:03] -Arete> No question about that.
01[11:04] -Arete> And you're speaking to someone who's last character was offed by Tar as well, and re-arrested once in that course of custody.
[11:06] -Kilian> So I was told.
[11:07] -Kilian> Things are piling up for me and this is like the icing. I did not mean what I said about you.
01[11:08] -Arete> Well, i'm going to remind you that not meaning something after the fact doesn't undo anything. It's good to think before you speak, especially under the influence of emotion.
01[11:08] -Arete> Now, if anything else of fact comes up with your arrest, let me know.
[11:08] -Kilian> Right.

From that, I took what was told to me by BOTH parties. I came to a conclusion. I gave BOTH parties the benefit of the doubt, and gave Kilian the resource that if this was to continue that I would view it as breaking the rules in that instance.

I am an ASim but i'm only human so please, do respond if the course of action I took was particularly unreasonable. However finding the middle ground to both players in the situation seemed the best course of action. However do know that many situations arise in swc administration that fall into gray areas. We as ASims hold the position to make judgment calls we feel most appropriate given the situation.


P.S. Any comments about using "IC" as an excuse to break rules is absurdist and will not fly with the administration.


Year 12 Day 206 23:23
Korvas Varik

So the fact that the IC item in question is an NPC tied with Cait's previous character doesnt break the rules because Alaks is doing the arresting and rearresting? Got it. Thanks for the clear up. Thread can be closed. We all see where this is going.


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varik1
Year 12 Day 206 23:41
Korvas, those are two separate issues. Which one are you complaining about?

The Sim News is about the arrest(s). The thread is about the Sim News. Arete explained the arrest(s).

If you want to make an accusation/complaint regarding lack of IC/OOC separation, then I assume you know the correct address to reach the ASims to make such a complaint. Otherwise it can only be assumed you are trying to muddy the issue with something actually unrelated.


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"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 12 Day 206 23:48
Korvas Varik

Which is why I posted in the question to admins, Hal. I wasnt aware there was an actual thread to post such accusations to an individual admin/asim.

I opted to post it as a group thread and since I have different answers to the same problem I dont know where to direct it, All I know is the arrest part has been taken care of,sort of, but the IC/OOC separation has not.

Do what the admins will, I can do nothing to stop it. As Always. All I know is I see a breach of IC/OOC separation since one character wants an NPC from a previous character and got a current character to do the dirty work. Either way I trust the fair Asims will do what is right.


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varik1
Year 12 Day 206 23:51
Would be funny if at this point it was revealed that Korvas was an IC enemy of Tar and Black Sun, and was trying to use OOC methods to hinder his IC enemy. And if so, very hipocritical of him.


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Year 12 Day 206 23:56
Korvas Varik

Would be funny indeed Elias, higher up in the Krath, but I am a nobody as anyone here or the hero wannabe's can testify but let's not get off the topic, you amins are good for that.

There is an IC/OOC separation issue here and if I am told there is not because Alaks, someone with ties to the asims and a third party, is doing the dirty work then fine...so be it, I just want to know where I can step as far as rule breaking seeing as how I just need to find a third party to do it.


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varik1
Year 12 Day 207 0:36
Kana Aevum

Korvas, you seem dead centered on admin corruption simply because they haven't ruled on it the way you want them to....a ruling you desire because it affects someone "you seem to care about" which can seriously affect your objective judgement. There has been nothing so far to support these accusations, and your aggression towards anyone that disagrees with your point of view on the matter is entirely unwarranted at this point in time, given the fact the full disclosure is being provided and they ASims are clearly trying to do their job fairly without being manipulated into "unnecessary interference" I think you should apologize to them and instead try to "work with them" to resolve your concerns.

In regards to the NPC & IC/OOC issue....people can desire OOC to have things that their previous characters owned but they can never simply "get it back", the whole point of a new character is starting with a clean slate. In the case of modded ships or vehicles, they can sometimes be earned/bought back from a different owner later down the road as a simple matter of commerce, in many cases that entity will have better stats or a history tied to their new character/organization/etc. If that NPC is am important part of Gwen's history, Tar/Cait may desire it as an IC "prize" such as choosing the raise the child of their victim.....or they may simply enslave/kill it for a bit of RP. There may even be some relatives to it in black sun or possibly one of its affiliates, do you know for certain why they wanted the NPC to begin with or are you just reaching for fuel to add to the proverbial fire?


Year 12 Day 207 0:38
Kilian was right in raising the concern of the second arrest. Kilian is in the right if it happens further.

Tar was not unreasonable in his actions within the circumstance.

I made a judgment call based on what I saw to be the most appropriate course of action. I'm not above admitting to mistakes in judgment and i'm more than willing to second-guess my own opinions if I have good reason to. If you have a cogent and articulate argument to make me revisit my judgment then do so privately.

[11:02] -Kilian> No. I say things when i'm upset. I don't know. I'm just angry.
01[11:03] -Arete> Claiming a bias because you don't like the answer is a rather unfair thing to me. 


Kilian was mature enough to admit to her emotions and how they affected her. I suggest you do the same and I simply reiterate what I told her, to you.

Until you wish to have a reasonable dialogue privately, end of story.


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Russ> This is an ok game with terrible people.
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