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Year 12 Day 317 9:07 ??????????
Myrhrai Isalia Rosiir

Ignorance should not be an excuse Siarica.

[quote]When I got the BS memberlist, I didn't knew it was "hacking". To my eyes, if changing a single character in an URL is hacking, adjusting the inclination of your seat when you take a plane is hijacking.{/quote]

“
1. "(a) Whoever--
having knowingly accessed a computer without authorization or exceeding authorized access, and by means of such conduct having obtained information that has been determined by the United States Government pursuant to an Executive order or statute to require protection against unauthorized disclosure for reasons of national defense or foreign relations, or any restricted data, as defined in paragraph y of section 11 of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, with reason to believe that such information so obtained could be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits, or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it;

- "http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/computer-hacking/"
 ”


Now yes, US law does not run the planet, but I doubt any large nations laws on hacking differ significantly. What I find interesting is if Siarica did not think this was hacking then what did she think she was doing?

Edited By: Myrhrai Isalia Rosiir on Year 12 Day 317 9:12
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Do you have cheap, docked or otherwise inaccessible assets in your inventory?

Then do not invoke the wrath of the asim's, instead send them to me. I will happily clutter my inventory so that yours can stay clean and tiddy.

Year 12 Day 317 9:10 ??????????
Kana Aevum

"Ignorance of the rules is not an excuse."

That has been the stance of the administration in the past, sometimes if you turn yourself in or report the issue yourself you may get a slap on the wrist but other people reported you in this event.

You have played this game for several years, and the rule regarding "exploiting a software weakness" for webpages (among other listed categories) has been around for longer than you.

____________


KA_Sig

Year 12 Day 317 9:13 ??????????
Shuji Shizuka

I'm just going to point this out here....but historically, you have horrendous IC/OOC separation. The names, the BS rejoin attempts with every new character, and at least one rather public debate over renaming.

Also, doing something that it's clear that you're not supposed to do is wrong. If the BS forum memberlist isn't publicly available, then you aren't supposed to get it. Altering their forums to gain confidential information is wrong, weather it's hacking or not. It's clearly against the rules.

Can an admin please clarify this?

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This user is currently in the process of moving, and so is semi-inactive.

Year 12 Day 317 9:57 ??????????
Jyncs Tahogah

I would just like to say I did not have cyber relations with her....and it is not the reason I stepped down.

That I can remember.....



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Year 12 Day 317 10:00 ??????????
Jenos Idanian

There was a debate on whether or not Black Sun made a 'reasonable attempt' to secure the information Siarica retrieved.

The question was if deleting the members.php file, which handled memberlist generation and profiles, was enough, or they should've taken further steps, such as required admin authorisation for new accounts etc.

Exploiting a security hole in whatever language the website was built in when the faction has made a reasonable attempt to secure the information is against the spying rules.

“1/ You May Not

Hack or exploit software weaknesses in web pages, chat rooms, or any other areas of a group or faction. ”



____________

Unless specifically stated, this post is not the view of the Star Wars Combine Administration and should not be viewed as such.

Year 12 Day 317 10:03 ??????????
Lazarus Kell

While it is illegal under US law, it's not the law you quoted. This would be unauthorized access to a non-protected computer system, which is a misdemeanor I believe. (As opposed to a protected computer system which is a felony (protected systems being mostly government owned or used for financial services).)

Also, while it is true US law does not run the planet, that pesky patriot act claims any information passing through US servers (even if it's coming from a foreign country and going to another foreign country) as US jurisdiction, and since the majority of world web traffic passes through servers in either California or Virginia...well you get the idea.

As far as SWC rules go, I wouldn't really call changing a number in a url hacking, just obtaining IC information through OOC means (which I think is still against the spying rules). The downloading of their entire forum and using macros to extract useful information on the other hand...


Year 12 Day 317 10:09 ??????????
Pozz Umgee

Who cares? I don't need to find out who unbanned her. You don't need to find out who unbanned her. She's unbanned, let's move on.


Year 12 Day 317 10:12 ??????????
Kana Aevum

You could backtrack instead and actually read the topic.....the question is WHY she was unbanned given the seriousness of her offenses.

____________


KA_Sig

Year 12 Day 317 10:15 ??????????
Elijah Shoryyhn

Let's move on? Are you out of your mind Pozz? A serious breach of game rules and player standards has occurred, the culprit claims ignorance (which is certainly not a reasonable excuse) and further tries to excuse his/her poor actions, and the administration is coldly silent on the matter. No. This should have the full attention of every player in the game.


Year 12 Day 317 10:15 ??????????
Rachel Keiko-sho

... am I missing something?

To my knowledge, "publicly available" would mean either you're a member of those forums, or you simply go to the website and click on the "members" button to get a list. This is how anyone else without that knowledge would be forced to do it, right? This is beginning to sound like hair splitting ..

"Black Sun didn't delete a certain file, therefore leaving their forums open to.."

... bullshit

In her own words, she outlined a very lengthy and detailed account of the lengths to which she went to circumvent forum security to get what she wanted. How is that not cheating, or exploiting? It's certainly not a means available to your average person (for lack of knowledge), and I doubt any forum software is intended to allow that.

Furthermore .. if she's really that knowledgeable about it then she would know that. It's a no brainer to begin with which also suggests that she knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that what she was doing was wrong.

Edited By: Rachel Keiko-sho on Year 12 Day 317 10:17

Year 12 Day 317 10:26 ??????????
Lilith Delcroix

This thread is just weird, only Asim posting here seems to on the side that doesn't like Sia was unbanned and only other Admin is not actually Asim anymore but seems like he doesn't want this to go public. Yeah I am talking about Jenos and Ellias.

I have nothing against Sia personally, but she did exploited loopholes and the rules on numerous occasions, constantly tried to attack the same faction over many characters and bragged about successfully hacking their forum. It would be just nice to get clear answer on this from the Admins. People get permaban for making multi account while being on 30day ban but hacking and completely failing with OOC separation apparently isn't as serious if you get just unabanned after 4 weeks....

____________


Moons can't fly.


Year 12 Day 317 10:44 ??????????
Jude Vatz

“Computer hacking is broadly defined as intentionally accessing a computer without authorization or exceeds authorized access. ”


It doesn't matter how it was done or whether it was Black Sun's fault for not securing their website, if you knowingly try to obtain information that you do not have access to then it is considered computer hacking.

I'm pretty sure the entire community knew about the details of the how and why when the permaban was issued and there was no huge uproar about it to my knowledge unlike some of the questionable bans in the past have had. That's why it is pretty surprising that the person in question would be unbanned without any formal reasoning.

It sets a very bad precedence going forward as many of the forum systems in use by combine factions have simple vulnerabilities that require a simple url change or adding some lines into a cookie file that based off this case is "not" considered hacking.

Unless there are some extenuating circumstances, none of which I would think matter anyways, I do not see the plausibility of this unbanning.

____________



Year 12 Day 317 11:45 ??????????
Arete


Dear Community,

A lot of time, effort and discussion went into the issue surrounding Siarica recent ban from her actions against Black Sun's forum. This was not a subject that went without thorough review on the concerns surrounding both the nature of the rules violation, the consequences of those actions, and also the intent behind the actions and the understanding of how the rules were written and meant to be understood.

There is no doubt that violations of rules occurred. There is a legacy in the SWCombine however of people pushing the boundaries of the rules in, dare we say, "creative" ways. The rightness of wrongness of this is one matter, but on the other hand it forces us as an administration to create more robust and better rules and precedent as well as taking into account the intent - whether it was done out of malice, or negligent boundary pushing.

These are all things that were discussed at length and as Jenos has made clear, there were those on the staff who were against this decision but it came more or less down to one thing: I believe in second chances, and I believe there was enough misunderstanding on the player's behalf of misunderstanding the rules as well as just how grievously they were breaking the rules. Based on those elements, I believe that a lengthy-enough ban, a clear discussion to understand the bounds of the rules, would be sufficient to allow the player to return to the game and continue playing in a fair manner.

There is also the fact that the administration being as skeptical as it is, and the player community being even more skeptical (as this thread amply proves), would mean that the player's actions would be subject to intense scrutiny upon return. Anything remotely suspicious as a result of the player's actions in the future will no doubt raise alarms immediately and the player knows that because they are standing on very thin ice, that one more infraction will most likely be their final.

Any further issues may be addressed to me privately.

____________


I am upset things like this happen. I get upset over every godamn thing. ~ Any given SWC player on any given day.

Year 12 Day 317 11:51 ??????????
Azarin Isard

Nice reply, it would have made a good SimNews post allowing us to get your side of things before Sia surprised people like me, by bragging about it in the General Forum. If you needed more time to craft a response, you could have said Sia won't be unbanned until you can create a good announcement.

Also, I trust that if Sia is using other scripts she claims are legal, but somewhat borderline, she'll be given zero tolerance? Since we've recently been banned from scanning the galaxy map with scripts due to server load, should the same restriction apply to faction websites/forums she's boasting about being able to datamine, so that she doesn't inadvertently DDoS attack factions she's spying on? DDoS by the way, is also starting to be considered "hacking" by some legal authorities thanks to LulzSec/Anonymous' high profile attacks of late.

Edited By: Azarin Isard on Year 12 Day 317 11:53

Year 12 Day 317 12:05 ??????????
Shuji Shizuka

This...is genuinely shocking. That a player who was found to have been hacking was released from a permaban, when people have been permanently banned for less in the past, is more than a little worrying. This is something that represents an actual threat to the playerbase, and she's being given another chance? Who's to say she won't hack Darkness next time, and get all sorts of things on players?

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This user is currently in the process of moving, and so is semi-inactive.

Year 12 Day 317 12:06 ??????????
Cait Catra

i can't count on all of my digits what's wrong with this situation. first off, the steps Black Sun took to protect their website? so if someone leaves their house unlocked at night, and i enter said house and, i don't know, smother everyone with a pillow, i can't be held liable because they left themselves open to attack? am i honestly the only person that sees something errant in that reasoning? she broke a rule. not a little one, but a very, very LARGE one. she knew exactly what she was doing, and she bragged about it every step of the way. i'm FURIOUS that ANY admin would even consider letting her come back, unless there's a really good reason. the silence emanating from the Admin corner of the Galaxy, however, leads me to believe that it's more than likely a case of her incessantly hounding/harassing/bugging one or more of the Admin team until someone finally got tired of it and gave in. i sincerely hope this isn't the case, as it sets a very serious precedent for getting bans lifted (Daygon be praised). i know it's tempting to look at it as a case of someone with good intentions trying to take down the big, bad, scary Black Sun, but let's look at it for what it is. siarica and her cohorts (she was tied in with those Silhouette hooligans ;P) have broken a LOT of rules, siarica's a very SERIOUS rule, to go after a group of people who actually DO follow the rules and play by the book. we may not play the way the rest of the Galaxy likes, but that's our right, so long as we're not doing anything wrong. we're not, we don't, and it's an affront to me as a rule-abiding member of this community that we're willing to let this garbage back into our midst. please please PLEASE, someone explain this outrageous ignorance of rules that have, as far as i know, been very clear and set in stone for many years. and if there is no good reason, i sense a great deal of anarchy on the horizon as butt-hurt players begin to realize that they can harass, harm, or otherwise negatively affect anyone they please with little to no mentionable consequence...

EDIT: the phone rang while i was typing up my reply, and it seems that we finally have an answer. sort of. of course she knows she's going to be watched, and of course everyone deserves a second chance. she got one already. this is a third chance, and i don't know many people who give those. as for her being watched, that's hardly enough to make anyone feel better. so she's going to bide her time and let her anger or whatever emotions are bouncing about inside her head build, and as soon as you stop "keeping an eye on her" it'll be back to the old tricks, just quieter and more careful. she's a serial offender, and this won't be the last time she exploits a feature or flat out breaks a rule to bring a smile to her face and aid her unreasonable crusade.

EDIT EDIT: i never thought i'd say this, but i agree with Shuji. i think i've found an answer that'll help me sleep at night, though. obviously, siarica has hacked the admins, and is now acting as them and making decisions. God save us all...

Edited By: Cait Catra on Year 12 Day 317 12:14
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Year 12 Day 317 12:11 ??????????
Esu Kyouto

Wasn't Aretes' in-game Avatar killed by Black Sun?


Year 12 Day 317 12:16 ??????????
Arete


“Nice reply, it would have made a good SimNews post allowing us to get your side of things before Sia surprised people like me, by bragging about it in the General Forum. ”

I was gone for a day and a half before I could post to the simnews. I didn't realize she would be so active so quickly. That is my fault for not being more prompt and posting the simnews at the time of the unbanning.

“Also, I trust that if Sia is using other scripts she claims are legal, but somewhat borderline, she'll be given zero tolerance? ”

Yes. Siarica is on a zero-tolerance boundary. Any further infractions, no matter how minor, will result in a ban from the game completely.

“Who's to say she won't hack Darkness next time, and get all sorts of things on players? ”

She's on zero-tolerance. Any further infractions will incur a ban from the game.

“i'm FURIOUS that ANY admin would even consider letting her come back, unless there's a really good reason. the silence emanating from the Admin corner of the Galaxy, however, leads me to believe that it's more than likely a case of her incessantly hounding/harassing/bugging one or more of the Admin team until someone finally got tired of it and gave in. ”

Reasons were stated in my post. My post should also indicate a lack of silence, as it wasn't exactly a short post.

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I am upset things like this happen. I get upset over every godamn thing. ~ Any given SWC player on any given day.

Year 12 Day 317 12:16 ??????????
Shuji Shizuka

I never thought i'd say this, but I agree with Cait;p

I agree that second chances should be given. But this is beyond a second chance. And the fact that she'll be watched prevents nothing. Being watched, she can only be stopped after the fact. She could go and hack someone else's forums right now, and if she dosen't say anything, it could be some time until she's discovered. That provides no security at all.

Edit: Arete, that's the problem. Any further infractions will result in a ban doesn't prevent her from committing those infractions. We know that Sia lacks any IC/OOC separation whatsoever, and while it may seem far-fetched, next time she could gain people's ISP's or personal information.

Edited By: Shuji Shizuka on Year 12 Day 317 12:20
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This user is currently in the process of moving, and so is semi-inactive.

Year 12 Day 317 12:18 ??????????
Cait Catra

and for the record, i work with Arete quite a bit, and i seriously don't think he's got an agenda against Black Sun... anyone who knows me, and my... feelings, towards authority figures knows that if i say i trust him to be unbiased towards Black Sun, he's unbiased. enter my haxor theory...

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