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Year 13 Day 295 22:29
Jubb

That, is the crux of the problem.

Certainly things like improved prospecting vehicles, and things of that nature, but until we start looking at the tree more and diving it up a bit, I'm not sure how big each individual groups tree is gonna be.

Like, ship factions are going to have a lot, no getting around that, but what we pull out and hand to mercenaries/pirates/info/transport etc, is something we'll need to look at once we figure out more of the how, and then start on the what, per R&D.

- Jesfa
 


I, like most people, have ideas and opinions on what might be helpful for my faction type. But rather than turn everything into a suggestions forum, I should probably just say that in the case of certain faction types (such as mining), the problem is that there is only a very small list of functions that it can provide, which limits it's opportunities to R&D.

Could I then suggest that the admins look for new functions to implement for some of these under-utilised faction types so that they might be able to create a larger R&D tree? I don't want to actually make a suggestion on this, but I would give an example of say, a function like prospecting from orbit, to allow mining factions to R&D a space based prospecting platform.

I know that new functions are being considered all the time, i'm just trying to say that maybe we could knock a few more out before R&D is implemented, so that R&D could be more balanced and interesting for some of these other faction types.


Edited By: Jubb on Year 13 Day 295 22:30
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Year 13 Day 296 16:10
Just so I can understand it clearly. It will be possible for a character (even a freelancer) to sit in his basement (of a R&D station), generate, e.g. 10 Research Points, put them on datapad and then sell it to highest bidder?
If yes, that will surely create a new commerce branch - production of RP for trade. Will there be new faction type for that?


Edited By: Kaaven Kavos on Year 13 Day 296 16:13
Year 13 Day 297 10:30
Why would we need a faction type? Everything needed for R&D as well as commerce is available in-game.


Year 13 Day 297 14:00
I was thinking it will be a big business (at the beginning at least) since every faction would need RP for everything (also fast if they want to outrun competition) so it significance would be enough to create "R&D only" companies. Also it don't have much in common with building ZOOs or stadiums.
But after looking at it for second time, I see that you are right, since there is not enough to R&D to extract from "Information" faction type. I just over-thinked this it seems...


Edited By: Kaaven Kavos on Year 13 Day 297 14:00
Year 13 Day 297 19:32
Well, previous hints/information/whatever has suggested that information factions would be able to access all the R&D trees. Whether that will make it to final implementation or not is unknown, but would be cool and make them slightly more useful.


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Year 13 Day 299 8:46
Well you'd think that if one Faction Type has access to all trees (even if only in that it can hold all DCs on a Merge) it'd be the Government type, but I can see why you'd want to make a Low-Cost faction have access to all trees to make it easier.


Year 13 Day 300 9:11
and again, if you can just load Research points onto a datapad and hand it to whomever to advance them along their tree....

then an Research point seller would not need to even be in a faction potentially (depending on the conditions requred to start an R&D 'cycle').


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Year 13 Day 300 10:46
Its been considered that, since points arent specifically a faction specific thing, freelancers would potentially be able to run independent research centers and sell their datapads to the highest bidder.


Year 13 Day 300 15:48
Darian Dash

^^ I like that idea^^

Rather than sell them , you'll be able to negotiate free DCs with the government/faction who you unlock DCs for , if you can find one you trust.

R&D looks like it will bring some exciting dynamics to the game.


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Year 13 Day 301 7:48
Jan Hutti

Me like idea too!


Year 13 Day 301 21:56
I hate these data cards.

If you are willing to spend the time doing research you should be able to build anything that you like.

Give factions and current owners of data cards a bonus to their R&D for having them, then slowly faze them out.

Data cards are great if you were one of the groups around when they were handed out, but how about the rest of us? Let R&D finally get rid of the DC monopoly.

From an RP point of view backward engineering of a ship to its DC blueprint should be possible, perhaps not easy, but possible, with ANY ship type, rare or otherwise (with the exception of current cp ships) IF you own the ship, you should be able to, over-time, backward engineer it (with the right personnel working with you.)

Also if you were to research level 2 Hyper on a Tab, it should perhaps take a long time to do, but shouldn't exclude someone else undertaking the same research, or you from selling your research upgrade to another group.

That's my 2 cents.

now I am going to hide from the backlash. :)


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Vyzerod Mining Sales Rep.
Year 13 Day 301 23:43
Uh, why would you spending your research points on (as you say) increasing your Tabders speed prevent anyone else from doing the same? Each factions R&D tree, though the same as other faction types, will be unique to them. So say the GE researched the Eclipse, nothing would prevent anyone else from researching it if/when they get to that R&D level.

As for existing DCs and factions, from what Jesfa mentioned earlier, it would seem that they would have to start from the bottom like everyone else, just they woud have a few leaves on the branches already. So, depending on how active other factions are, the existing DC owners could find themselves outpaced by other factions.


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Year 13 Day 303 8:37
Will factions with the same tree be able to share their research results or will every faction have to work on it's on?
I think this is a critical point for allied groups when planning on how their cooperation in R&D will have to look like.

EDIT: Big question regarding Governments that own DCs of various types: Which type of tech tree will they get, if at all. If Governments are not able to do R&D, what will happen to the tech tree of a production faction if they bacome a Government, what will happen if the Government reverts back to it's orginial type?


Edited By: Endaro Kassan on Year 13 Day 303 9:30
Year 13 Day 303 14:00
RE: Reverse Engineering: Discussed elsewhere, sort of. (Developing Uglies - R&D for recycling factions) It's a neat idea for an alternate path to DC-ownership, though it would devalue R&D along the way. Players would only have to steal so many ships of a given type before they got the DC for it, and could just start producing the damn things all on their own (in addition to stealing more). Also, via Reverse Engineering, you could theoretically end up with no restrictions whatsoever for who owns what type of DC. It'd eliminate real and continued diplomacy in favour of stealing existing produced assets that various Factions have spent YEARS producing and will be sitting around until Ship combat gets introduced (**ETA-STOPBUGGINGMEFORSHIPCOMBAT!!!TM). IE: It introduces similar problems as R&D from rented DCs does.

@Nicholas Umbra:
Nicholas: R&D is intrinsically tied to DCs. It's the identifier that we've created to encompass the general idea of a blueprint for an entity. DCs will not be done away with, though additions such as ad-hoc "Modding" (see Weapon Customisation without R&D for an example of such a discussion) may allow additional options for upgrading ships independent of R&D in the sort of "Upgrade" sense you were mentioning.

@ Endaro Kassan & Nicholas:
The question is really whether or not the game will ever allow DC's (researched or otherwise) to be independently transferrable or copyable. IE: If my Shipbuilding faction researches Leaf "X", can we then sell that Leaf X to another shipbuilding faction (or another faction entirely)? If so, would we lose access to that DC, or would it be as if we unlocked the DC on both factions' tech trees? I believe the answer was emphatically 'No' last time I heard, which makes Faction merging the only way to "transfer" DCs. (IE: Faction A sends all its assets to a new Faction X, then Faction A merges with Faction B, where the DCs then get merged into Faction B (subject to the Rules), Faction A is dissolved, and Faction X continues on its merry way, for all intents and purposes equal to Faction A - the DCs.

I imagine that the DC-amalgamation rules for when factions merge will remain the same once R&D comes out. Therefore if two Shipbuilding factions merge and they have different researched "leaves" on the Shipbuilding Tech Tree, then the new amalgamated Faction will have all the "leaves" that either of the two shipbuilding factions previously owned (A U B). That's extrapolatable from previous admissions that the intention is to have all TYPES of factions have identical Tech Trees to research from.

From the Merging Rules:
5/ Faction Mergers
Factions of a similiar type can be merged together. The ability to merge a faction relies on the following requirements.

The owners of the factions wishing to merge must own atleast 95% of the faction's stock.
Both Factions must be of the same type.
Both Factions must accept the merger request.
The faction being dissolved must have enough credits to pay the merger cost. (The Faction Registration Cost)
Once a merger has been accepted by both parties, the faction(AKA Faction A) sending the original request will merge into the receiving faction(AKA Faction B), dissolving Faction A.
Every asset owned by Faction A shall then be merged into Faction B, including unique datacards and members. However, when merging datacards, datacards only get merged if they match the production type of the group they are merging to.

If two governments merge together, Faction B will only receive datacards from Faction A depending on Faction A's previous faction type.


- http://www.swcombine.com/rules/?Factions
 

Emphasis added. And for that matter, I'm pretty sure the last line is a typo, and means to indicate that Faction B will only receive DC from Faction A that correspond to Faction B's previous faction type. For Governments merging with other Governments, it's all about what the original faction type was for the Governments.

Therefore, by analogy to the existing Rules, I would surmise that Governments would get access to the tech tree of whatever their previous incarnation was. HOWEVER, I do not know whether there are any Governments out there that were NEVER another type of faction. I'd guess if there are any, they would be the main Canon ones (GE and NR). As such, I rely on the rest of you to speculate or educate me on how a merger of:
A) a Gov't with an original faction type into a Government WITHOUT an original faction type; or
B) a gov't without an original faction type into a Government without an original faction type;
would be handled (and therefore by analogy what Tech Trees those 'Always-were-Governments' factions would have access to).


Edited By: Kay Dallben on Year 13 Day 303 14:03
Year 13 Day 304 1:57
Jan Hutti

I think that if you reverse engineer a ship you should get the technology of the ship but the not the ship itself. So if you reverse engineer a tie fighter you would open up on your tech tree its engines, hull, electronics and weapons. Then you should have to put that in your own ship design and call it something different. So reverse engineering would only unlock technology.

Perhaps it should take twice as long to reverse engineer a ship as build it and you only get one technology out of it in place of all of it.


Year 13 Day 304 7:52
@Jan Hutti: So, if I might rephrase your suggestion to fit with R&D generally: Reverse Engineer a Ship:
Time + RMs + Credits + NPCs + Production Time in a Facility --> Ship Destroyed + get some Research Points on a datapad

I think this would only work (and be balanced) if R&D Points redemption is done on a Cumulative basis (ie when unlocking a LEAF on a tech tree, you can use multiple datapads of the same R&D Type to make up the required Points).



Year 13 Day 304 8:09
Jan Hutti

@Kay I like the way you put that. So you don't get the tech you get the points that can be added with your other pad to unlock the tree.

It seems to be a simple and elegant solution.


Year 13 Day 306 7:51
Helena Gladio

Perhaps i missed the answer, but what is the ETA on R&D?


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Shout out to my fellow Falleen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco
Year 13 Day 306 21:34
THere is no definitive R&D ETA


Year 13 Day 310 4:55
Jan Hutti

Pity, I spent a lot of points on R&D if there are no firm plans to release it can we get those point back?


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