I'm so glad that thread wasn't archived away from public view. I would have quoted it in full myself, but TBH I wasn't sure if it was in the Leaders Forum and/or somehow Tal Dorn never saw it before it was archived. It must've been in the Questions forum at the time.Edited By: Kay Dallben on Year 18 Day 93 9:55
My knowledge and information came from testing the new feature on request of the Dev Team, and noting that potential exploit. Charlena Halo did the same. The part of the quote Tal emphasized ("You do not auto lose the DCs, but of course you no longer meet requirements to buy new ones.") refers to the results of my testing, and is crucially clarified by the next statement regarding abuse of same to signify the intended use of the feature. Clearly the majority of players understood this, as the vast majority of production factions appear to be (or definitely are) in compliance.
@Carth: "I find it unfair that Factions ... are being put in the same box as people genuinely gaming the system and who are breaking the golden rule with the fullest intent to do so. Whatever you want to call removing Generic Datacards it will still be a punishment. "
Oh, so somebody else evaded paying a billion dollars in taxes, and you just made a mistake in deducting a couple expenses twice. Tell me more about how we're being unfair to you when talking about making people pay their taxes owed. Billion Dollars Evasion - in the order of 46 slots worth of Generic DCs; Deducted your copier purchase twice - in the order of being a few members short of your current held DC Slots... Any chance of real punishment* to most is slim to none, but Tal's vehemently trying to maintain that unfair advantage his factions have enjoyed for the past years, and that's not worthy of sympathy or defense, Carth.
* Seriously... Punishment would be bans and/or asset-fines. If you fail to pay your taxes, it's not a Punishment when the IRS / CRA forcibly takes some of your wages to collect what you owe. The punishment in that RL example is (duh) penalties assessed in addition to what you owe. In this case, factions like Tal's are not being punished at all, they're simply being required to comply with the rules that the vast majority of production factions have always been complying (or substantially complying) with, on an ongoing basis. Some factions got an advantage after exploiting lack of robustness in the code and creatively interpreting the Rules, a few MUCH more than others. It's a settled issue that the intention was always that the membership requirements were to maintain as well as purchase, so without arguing the feature's intention was different, tell me why they should keep that unfair advantage ongoing?
@Jastan Vul : " if people were not in on these discussions, how would the[y] know better?" Because it was publicly discussed - #swc-members #swc-help / etc. on IRC, forums, and SimNews, and because clearly the majority of players Know Better (evidenced by their compliance with the membership requirements), and Tal and others ought to, as well.
Every opportunity is/was there for people to ask the questions and seek clarification on rules, and sometimes ambiguity slips through the cracks because we think it's bloody obvious you shouldn't abuse a feature. Some people breach rules consciously, others allow self-interest to blind them to the proper and reasonable interpretations of the rules, and others have such poor reading comprehension and ability to think critically that they're helpless against misinterpreting the rules, and yet others claim the rules are so terribly worded that they can't possibly be held to any interpretation of them. We get a decent number of inquiries in #swc-help about rule clarification, and players are absolutely welcome and encouraged to hop in and ask those kinds of questions.
The Rules really are mostly clear enough to understand the intention on their own, but clarifications come about when people like Tomas ask the right questions. A highly technical reading of the Rule in question could result in construing only purchasing having requirements, but any second thought about the Golden Rule makes it obvious there's no intention to allow factions to recruit a bunch of active characters and then retain significant DC access after their membership drops down. I have little sympathy for people who play dumb or blame 'poor rule drafting', - those who notice ambiguity in the Rules and say nothing and enjoy unfair advantages as a result deserve any inconvenience they get. Tal noticed at the time and asked the question (which got lost amidst the rest of his and others' ranting). He may have even gotten clarification elsewhere as well (my quoted thread). Those others who intentionally breach rules and abuse features deserve any punishment they get.
Given just how many of the production factions are in or very close to compliance, it's clear who the outliers are who are just playing dumb or negligently ignoring the state of their faction, and it's clear who the abusers are who obviously exploited the system. To repeat my previous statements, that doesn't mean I think the dumb should be punished the same as the worst abusers (or punished at all in many cases). Again, since apparently I have to drill this point home... Forcing compliance with the Golden Rule is not a punishment.