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Year 8 Day 87 16:53
Guest/Visitor

-Rav Isaar-

Now I do not want this thread to become a flaming thread so no one post stupid things like ?oh I agree and Drei should be removed blah blah? This is a serious questions to the Administrative team.

Now I was banned for breaking the rule stated by Dreighton as [I] So there was a plan to have Rav join the Raptor Pirates with a harmful intention and this clearly is infiltration, no matter if any information was passed to anyone outside the group while Rav was a member of Raptor Pirates. [/I]

Now I have gone to the Rules page and here are as follows, the rules about spying.

[i]You may not:
? Infiltrate another group and then report or sell the information you gather about it to another group.


? Bribe, threaten, or intimidate any member of the combine Out of Character for any purpose or reason.
? Sell, trade or give away classified information about your own group to person(s) that are not members of your or known allied groups.
? Impersonate a member of the combine for any reason. This means you may not steal a person's name on IRC or register on message boards with someone else's handle.


? Intercept the communications (Email, ICQ etc.) of other players; get files from their hard disks by using Trojan Horses. (Back Orifice, Viruses, etc.)
? Hack or infiltrate web pages, chat rooms, or any other PRIVATE areas of a group or organization. This includes joining a private protected channel for the sole purpose of getting a member count and member names as well as retrieving a channel's access list for the same purpose.
? If you leave a group and are still on their mailing list then you may remain there if the owner says you are allowed to, if not you MUST clearly continue to inform the owner of the list until you are taken off. Information sent from the list after you leave the group and after you warned the list owner is yours to use as you wish.
Anyone breaking these rules will be BANNED[/i]


Where does it say one cannot infiltrate and kill someone of another member? And as Dreighton stated I did not sell info so you can easily mark of the first. I did not threaten any of the members out of character. I did not impersonate anyone of the combine I was my self, Rav Isaar, while I was a member of the Raptor Pirates. I did not hack into anything that was in the Raptor Pirates board. And I was never on any mailing list of the raptor pirates.

Now here are the rules for what you can do dealing with spying.

[i]You May:
? Have one or more persons in your group whose task is to uncover spies that are trying to infiltrate your group and/or increase the security of vital group information in general as long as they are respecting the restrictions above.
? Defect to another group, then reveal to your new group information you know about your old group. BUT, know that people do not like traitors; for the fun of your game, do not defect more than once or twice or people will never accept you in their group, nor trust you.
? Have one or more persons in your group with the task to spy/gather information about other players or groups if this information comes from public websites, ICQ information field, etc. You can read the pages of everyone and compare the info you find.
? You may agree to a deal with a member and receive their side of the payment but not contribute your own. i.e. Keir Santage agrees to exchange an R-41 for a Tie Fighter. A. Downer transfers ownership of the Tie Fighter to Keir but Keir refuses to give the R-41 to A.Downer. Be aware that people who do this will quickly become despised and shunned by the Combine community and would be lucky to land any more deals.


? Place person(s) in the vicinity of a target to gain information about it prior to a military strike.
? Infiltrate (gather information on physical terrain and morale of those working in/around the target) a facility with the intention of gathering information on the target to ease the way for an imminent military strike.
? Spread false information about yourself or another group/person for any reasons.
? Perform Propaganda.
? Sell information about a third party to another party i.e. A third group sells info to the rebels about the empire.[/i]





Note number 6, I infiltrated the Raptor Pirates hurt them, which is in the rules.

So I ask you, all of the Administrators, which rule have I broken?

Because if it is illegal to infiltrate to hurt a faction then Maximillion Powers should be banned as well for infiltrating The New Anzat Order and trying to assassinate Raider Aspect.


Year 8 Day 87 17:43
As I said in the other 3 posts, this needs to be directed towards the simmaster (he normally does not come here)

Maybe we need to define this forum a little more, setup who needs to read posts here and what can be posted and who can reply with correct answers.


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ranmasig0.png\"

SWC Fanpage --\\\\-- SWC Twitter
Year 8 Day 87 17:44
Guest/Visitor

I am asking every admin (hence the title) what rule did i broke if i even did break one. Veynom will be one i am wanting an answear for, you are one i want an answear for. I want answears for all those that hold the title 'Admin' "Asim' and 'Sim'


Year 8 Day 87 18:11
Sorry but I have no opinion and neither should any other admin. Only one who should be able to question another admin is the simmaster. Only he should be able to change something one of us have decided. When our opinion is needed is when he asks for it.


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ranmasig0.png\"

SWC Fanpage --\\\\-- SWC Twitter
Year 8 Day 87 18:17
Guest/Visitor

I see, well i have sent an email to him. Seems I need to inform him of my thread as well.


Year 8 Day 88 2:07
Still, you carelessly and willingly violated the golden rule by preparing OOC the entire operation without having an active character.

This is mostly why you got banned.

For you info, i got a full copy of the entire invistigations and also noticed how much you and Keir/Teniel were uncooperative. This did not plead in your favour and only added to the rest. Note that I agree the sentence would be more fair if Keir/Teniel was punished as well.

Come back in a couple of month to see if I would alleviate your sentence.


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Sim Master Veynom

*** This post is written on 100% recyclable electrons. ***
Year 8 Day 88 2:24
Ralgarrch
Ralgarrch
So to clarify the latest interpretation of the rule it would have been fine if they'd only discussed it OOC for 5 minutes after the character was created before sending the join request?


Edited By: Ralgarrch on Year 8 Day 88 2:28
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Year 8 Day 88 2:36
violated the golden rule by preparing OOC the entire operation without having an active character 


Which was not the given reason for the ban, might I point out.

First off, if it is supposed to be illegal to plan your character with others prior to creating it, then there's a couple of people in my faction who spoke with me about the skills I needed for a member of Alissma prior to creating as they had already decided to join the faction. Are they also in violation of the rules?

Secondly, viewing it from an IC standpoint, Rav Isaar did not magically appear fully formed into the galaxy. He was born many years ago, he grew up, and during that time he had access to the same information sources any player's character has - including the GNS, the classifieds, and Teniel's very publically posted journal. There would be nothing to stop this Rav Isaar from talking to Teniel and planning an operation with her, with his intention to leave the planet in the near future. There was no IC/OOC mixing of a new character getting something because of an old character. All the discussion, IC and OOC, was about a single character. Is it against the Golden Rule to hold an OOC discussion about your character?


If Rav had created prior to the planning of this operation, would there still be a rules violation?
Under exactly WHAT circumstances is it illegal to "infiltrate" another faction?
Is it illegal to be defensive (uncooperative) when someone who you have outwitted within the rules - as they are given on the Combine site - decides to respond to your IC actions with an OOC complaint?
And if we are actually enforcing bans for mixing IC and OOC, is PaulDaJedi going to be banned for making an IC GNS post about "escaping" his OWN arrest by Eidola, which was reversed by OOC Admin action?


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"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 8 Day 88 8:27
i explained why I approved the ban.

I don't need to go further.


If you don't like this system, then come with a ladder of punishment
action - repetition - punishment

3 columns would be enough.


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Sim Master Veynom

*** This post is written on 100% recyclable electrons. ***
Year 8 Day 88 11:39
So you refuse to respond to questions about apparent flaws in your reasoning? Your explanation is insufficient to answer the concerns raised. If you are so confident in your decision being right and complete, you should be able to answer the questions, and do so in public.


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"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 8 Day 88 12:42
If MOST of the people thinks what Rav did was legal... then people obviously cant handle the grey areas and the rules must change to:

Its illegal to join or stay in a faction with the intention to hurt it.


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PhillipBromleySmiley1-1.png

Combat please? damit... damn it to hell !!!!!!!!

Orphaea Imperium: Looter.
Year 8 Day 88 13:36
Except, Paparrin, that it has long been allowed to be in a faction for the sole reason of "hurting" it - several infamous faction strippings, plus other attempts to kill prominent faction members demonstrate this. That's exactly why a Sim News saying Rav was banned for "infiltration" seems so much like total crap. Especially when Veynom is here saying it was from something completely different.


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 8 Day 88 14:34
Guest/Visitor

Delete by request of poster.


Edited By: Ranma on Year 8 Day 88 15:24
Year 8 Day 88 14:48
It has been allowed in the past, yes, its always been a grey area. But if then this grey area is swayed to the side where making a new character, entering a faction for 2 weeks and then handing people to the enemy, is ok. Well, then thats the end of letting people use their own criteria if you ask me. It takes no skills, there is no ic or ooc defense against it, and it opens the door for further abuse.

How about making a private character checkbox that says 'i am a spy on this faction' that no one can see, but trough a skill check a person could have a minimal chance of spotting him using his skills against the spy's deceit skills, i mean if he is right there in front of him. That way he can do whatever the hell he wants, because he is actually risking some kind of failure, and it doesnt put anyone in a major disadvantage (somoenoe who doesnt use irc, msn, etc).

Well, thats not gonna happen but it shows my point.


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PhillipBromleySmiley1-1.png

Combat please? damit... damn it to hell !!!!!!!!

Orphaea Imperium: Looter.
Year 8 Day 88 14:58
Riax Tardes
Riax Tardes
We need a lie detector !!!


Year 8 Day 88 18:58
Silas Haderach
Silas Haderach
Just thought I should point out that someone will need to be banned soon.



I was about to start playing when I noticed the rules saying we should join a faction before we chose a starting place so we can start at their planet, which got me thinking, is it recommended to talk to the faction you want to join first to find out what they need/want so you can make your character fit that role or whatever?

- Guest
 




You can join before, but it is recommended to join a faction before creating your character. And yes the best way to find out which faction to join is by talking to them (either email, the faction message board or IRC)

- Ranma
 




Still, you carelessly and willingly violated the golden rule by preparing OOC the entire operation without having an active character.

- Veynom
 


You'll have to ban that kid when he joins. Note that I agree the sentence would be more fair if Ramna was punished as well.


Edited By: Silas Haderach on Year 8 Day 88 18:59
Year 8 Day 88 19:34
Guest/Visitor

Rav, just make a new character with a different email adress.


Year 8 Day 88 19:42
Tyr Tulon
Tyr Tulon
Nice call noticing that Silas, though that kid probably shouldn't be banned, since that kid was me, and I posted that earlier today and intended to make the same point myself once it was answered. Honestly, the guide even suggests people join a faction before they pick a starting location, and a good number of newbs are advised to pick a faction and talk to them before even creating their character to be sure they fill a roll that's needed.

I don't really see what Rav did that was so different from picking a faction before picking a starting location, which is not only suggested in the guide, it's the only programmed way to have a possible second starting location as far as I know.

Edit: Oh yeah, and sorry about that Ranma, if you view that as being tricked/used/abused/trapped/..., that was never my intention.


Edited By: Tyr Tulon on Year 8 Day 88 19:48
Year 8 Day 88 20:46
There is a difference between making a character and picking a starting location. You can create a character, and join a faction, before picking a location. You can't join a faction before creating a character - although you can pick one and talk to them about your character.

Nice practical demonstration, but I did already raise the point in my first post.


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 8 Day 88 21:58
Adam Zad
Adam Zad
Since Hal has raised the issue, I would agree that clarification would be nice. Was Rav banned for "infiltration," as Dreighton claimed, or was Rav banned for "preparing OOC the entire operation"?

Dreighton posted on the SimNews to clarify the rules, but it seems that they were clear before, and now everyone is just confused. It would be nice it was very clearly spelled out what exactly we can and cannot do.

Is it ever OK to infiltrate a faction, even if it's just to steal? Is it ever OK to make any sort of IC plans before you create your character? I decided to create a Noghri warrior and join Astralwerks several days before Finn Setanta was actually created...should I be banned for that? For that matter, everyone who has ever joined the Combine has made some sort of IC plans, even if it's just what kind of character they want, before they make their character. Many players talk to people with established characters before they firm up their final plans as regards their characters. Should everyone be banned?


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