::Forum - Clarification - Star Wars Combine::

Page 1 2 3 4

Year 8 Day 347 13:32	Clarification
Oilios Katastrefor	Can we get clarification as to what the current rule is in regards to "spying" and "infiltration"? Additionally what constitutes "Classified information?"

Year 8 Day 347 14:29	Clarification
Cesodevo Avina	An interesting question. I'm saying interesting because we once had a talk about this that lasted nearly 3 hours. So I am also interested to know an exact answer to this. I will certainly remind myself to watch this thread :) I'm certainly not an Admin, and I myself was just recently nearly accused of breaking the spying rules, but besides those two facts, as a rule of thumb I would say: "Classified information: Things in your faction that are impossible for people outside of your faction to know, for instance who has what privileges." If I for instance signed up for a forum under my own name on enemy faction X's forum, and I was for some strange reason accepted and given access to all areas, I personally would see that as infiltration and not spying. After all, I didn't do anything wrong. Rather, the person accepting me was wrong. However, if I joined faction X, then left that faction and joined faction Y, and I still had access to the areas from where I was in faction X, that would be spying in my eyes. In my own opinion, there is a very thin line between spying and infiltration, especially because many things that supposedly are classified info (eg location of hidden systems) are actually publicly accessible (eg simply microjump until you find the hidden system), but I don't make the rules. ____________ Time to go to war with the Flame Tigers!

Year 8 Day 347 15:38	Clarification
David Kellar	And if classified is an IC designation it needs to be listed as such, if not this probably needs to be reworded

Year 8 Day 347 22:37	Clarification
Hal Breden	Classified is, in some aspects, an IC thing. What may be freely available information in one faction - command staff being listed on the website, for example - might be classified in another faction. Nobody outside of a faction can determine what information should and should not be given out for that faction. ____________ "May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies." Only fools and children dream of heroes.

Year 8 Day 348 1:36	Clarification
Cesodevo Avina	So then actually, the definition of 'classified information' varies from faction to faction, is that it? Because if that is the case, then there can't really be punishments to breaking the spying rules in terms of just spying and gathering classified information, as the rules are flexible for each faction, and people are harder to punish if they break flexible rules. So for example, hidden cities. Faction X has 3 hidden cities on Planet Y. Now Faction Z wants to know where these hidden cities are. Faction X sees that as classified information, but Faction Z soon finds them and presents them to the whole galaxy. Although Faction X sees that as breaking the spying rules because they find out something only Faction X was supposed to know, that actually is not breaking the rules, as it is easy (if also tedious) to find out this information. ____________ Time to go to war with the Flame Tigers!

Year 8 Day 348 2:44	Clarification
Lance Hawke	I've always been under the impression that when you infiltrate a faction, anything you gather from the "faction" button in the manage tab would be breaking the rules since that is stuff they cannot hide from everyone that joins, just like IFF Lists, A/E Lists, 100% accurate member lists, ect... Forums are grey areas so i would avoid those as well. However, logs and DMs are free game i'd assume. That's my thought on the matter.

Year 8 Day 348 6:31	Clarification
Cam Antilles	The rules are intentionally unclear. (so it seems). Admins refuse to clarify them because they want a large gray area. Technically, joining a faction for any bad purpose can be considered infiltration. Its why certain players have been banned for joining a faction to kill someone in that faction. This allows them to prosecute what they believe is wrong, even if it is just that specific instance that is wrong and not every instance like that. As I paraphrase what our dear Sim Master has said, "If you walk in the gray areas, sometimes the hammer falls on you." ____________ "Somewhere, there's a bullet with your name on it. The trick is to die of age before it finds you"

Year 8 Day 348 6:39	Clarification
David Kellar	Hmmm, so how best to request that hammer be targeted on persons who did that?

Year 8 Day 348 7:31	Clarification
Cam Antilles	If you feel that rules have been violated, contact the administration. ____________ "Somewhere, there's a bullet with your name on it. The trick is to die of age before it finds you"

Year 8 Day 348 7:32	Clarification
David Kellar	aye, and once the e-mail drops into the black hole what next? Edit: spelling Edited By: David Kellar on Year 8 Day 348 9:06

Year 8 Day 348 7:40	Clarification
Cam Antilles	hole* Then bug them until they give you some sort of answer. ____________ "Somewhere, there's a bullet with your name on it. The trick is to die of age before it finds you"

Year 8 Day 348 8:24	Clarification
Cesodevo Avina	So basically what you are saying is that the Admins are intentionally having this gray area as large as possible to eventually be able to ban as many players as possible? That may explain why what you said about admins not giving input on this may be true. I don't see the problem about joining a faction to be able to kill certain people there. And since it doesn't state that specifically in the rules, I don't know why some people are banned while others aren't. So taking this a small step further, are we talking about a form of Anarchy here? So, assuming a high-ranking Admin assistant or whatnot that has still has their character decides to join faction X, and after half a year kills their 2nd in command, they would not be banned, but a 'nobody' that did the same thing would be banned? So all in all, there is more about this not explained than explained. Because even if it says that you may not join a forum for the sole purpose of gathering the member count, it's not entirely the infiltrator's doing, it's also the person in the faction in question who is at main fault because he/she gave this person access. And why should the spy/infiltrator be punished for the potential stupidity and/or carelessness of the person granting the access? And oh yeah: The rules don't say anything about a gray area. ____________ Time to go to war with the Flame Tigers!

Year 8 Day 348 9:31	Clarification
Cam Antilles	“ So all in all, there is more about this not explained than explained. Because even if it says that you may not join a forum for the sole purpose of gathering the member count, it's not entirely the infiltrator's doing, it's also the person in the faction in question who is at main fault because he/she gave this person access. And why should the spy/infiltrator be punished for the potential stupidity and/or carelessness of the person granting the access? ” It has been explained before that if you leave a group and still have access to something like the mailing lists, its is your job to inform the group of this and have them remove your access. While I don't agree with this, is what has been stated to either myself or people who have had these issues. “ And oh yeah: The rules don't say anything about a gray area. ” Of course they don't, and they don't need to. The gray area is established by lacking a set of rules. If you want a similar document, look at the US Constitution. Especially the part where it says Congress may *"make all laws which shall be necessary and proper". It doesn't say there is a gray area, but it doesn't define the limit as that is something which is supposed to be interpreted by administrations and people through time. The spying rules are the same way. “ [04:05] <@Veynom> I don't say it would have been ok. [04:05] <@Veynom> At best, it is in the grey area, never in the green. [04:06] <@Cam> I know, thats why I'm trying to get it clarified [04:06] <@Cam> This very well could have been dozens of other players because there is no clarification on the subject [04:07] <@Veynom> that's the problem of the grey area [04:07] <@Veynom> but if someones purposely acts into the grey area, he should NOT complaint about possibly getting th ehammer on his nails. ” Edited By: Cam Antilles on Year 8 Day 348 9:47 ____________ "Somewhere, there's a bullet with your name on it. The trick is to die of age before it finds you"*

Year 8 Day 348 9:43	Clarification
Hal Breden	The rules are intentionally left broad to prevent people from skirting around the letter of the rules. The written word is often imprecise, and the exact meaning of a given sentence can vary from person to person. By leaving them inspecific, in any given instance the Admin can assess what exactly occured and whether it was a violation of the spirit of the rules, or if it was acceptable game behaviour. The instance Cam mentions was specifically punished because he was a recreated character, with no history, that the target faction could not anticipate as hostile, treating him as any new member. In other cases there are longer standing characters infiltrating, and people have a chance to know what to expect from them. At least, that was the stated reason. Common sense and context must also be applied. If you are contracting another faction to do construction for you in a hidden system, the location of that system must be given to that group. However, the information could still be considered classified for all other purposes, and someone else giving the information out would still be breaking the rules. ____________ "May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies." Only fools and children dream of heroes.

Year 8 Day 348 10:13	Clarification
David Kellar	So if some faction members are disseminating classified data to non faction members for their direct harm and the harm of the faction, that would be breaking the rules right?

Year 8 Day 348 10:39	Clarification
Cesodevo Avina	Was about time you showed up, Hal. :P So basically, we are saying that (the punishments of breaking) the spying rules are an unspecific guideline that varies from player to player? So each player would have to figure the rules out for themselves and understand them to a point. However, what if they are different understandings of these rules? Sure, you're supposed to use your common sense, but my common sense tells me that if I find out the hidden cities and hidden systems in enemy space, I am not breaking the spying rules, and it also tells me that if someone does not take me off of whatever mailing list even though they know I am not in the faction anymore, that it is their loss and not me that should be punished for something they failed to do. In fact, my common sense also tells me that recreating characters just to kill Leader XYZ is perfectly legal. So we have concluded that common sense varies from person to person, and we have concluded that common sense and spying rules do not necessarily coincide with another, both possibly going to opposite directions. Which puts us back at square one With all that said, the only problem I see is that people are being banned for unclear and potentially unjustified rules. But since nothing about that will change anyway, and I have the tendency to break away from the original topic, let me get back down to earth. So far, the best explanation of what exactly is 'classified information' so far came from Lance, at least in my opinion. And David, I believe it would also be breaking the spying rules even if sharing the information would not harm or even benefit the faction in question. So from a point of view, the most recent GNS post about Toydaria was also breaking the spying rules, since "classified" information, kept between two factions, was spread out by one faction to the general public, including the faction's enemies. And according the rules, you are breaking the spying rules when you "Sell, trade or give away classified information about your own group to person(s) that are not members of your or known allied groups." So with the above in mind, a large part of the GNS posts, not just the most recent ones, are breaking the spying rules. And yeah, using common sense in case would solve the problem, but as proven above, common sense and rules can collide when the differences in understanding are too great. Of course the thing with the GNS posts was merely an example. ____________ Time to go to war with the Flame Tigers!

Year 8 Day 348 11:37	Clarification
Hal Breden	“Was about time you showed up, Hal. :P ” Excuse me for sleeping! “So basically, we are saying that (the punishments of breaking) the spying rules are an unspecific guideline that varies from player to player? So each player would have to figure the rules out for themselves and understand them to a point. ” Should every player understand the rules? Hell yes! A player who doesn't make themselves understand the rules has no right to complain when they are punished for breaking them. Do you have similar sympathies for those morons who simply failed to read the Multi rules? “However, what if they are different understandings of these rules? Sure, you're supposed to use your common sense, but my common sense tells me that if I find out the hidden cities and hidden systems in enemy space, I am not breaking the spying rules, ” You are not, if you did not receive that information from that faction in one of the methods outlined in the spying rules (such as joining it, seeing the location on the shiplist, and then leaving). “and it also tells me that if someone does not take me off of whatever mailing list even though they know I am not in the faction anymore, that it is their loss and not me that should be punished for something they failed to do. ” I'd happen to agree. Which is why a specific rule exists for that situation, to remove the grey area. “In fact, my common sense also tells me that recreating characters just to kill Leader XYZ is perfectly legal. ” Except that it's crossing IC/OOC boundaries. You are using the OOC fact that your recreated character is unknown to affect the IC events of the faction accepting your join request and letting you close enough to someone important so you can kill them. So on that one you fail. “So if some faction members are disseminating classified data to non faction members for their direct harm and the harm of the faction, that would be breaking the rules right? ” Who decides what is of direct harm to the faction? If my 2IC tells someone where I (as faction leader) am, and adds them to my ship crewlist to kill me so he can take control of the faction, that's a Spying Rules violation. If I tell someone where my 2IC is, and give them access to his crewlist to kill him, because I feel he's bad for the faction, isn't that allowable? Or I could have another member of my faction do it for me, rather than taking care of it myself. If there's no complaint from the leader, have the Spying rules been broken? But now I'm just recapping another discussion that lead to Oilios posting here, so I'm sure he's not interested in hearing my thoughts again. ____________ "May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies." Only fools and children dream of heroes.

Year 8 Day 348 12:19	Clarification
Oilios Katastrefor	Well, in that case, allow me to silently think what I said vocally to Veynom last week. Because ambigious laws are not good for anyone, especially the admins, who I imagine do not enjoy listening to all the pleas, complaints and evidence that gets put forth to them I'm sure quite often. All that does is produce the politicalization of the spying rules. It becomes a tool just like any other, as you go and lobby admins to act in your favour. Clearer rules would ~~eliminate~~ reduce the occurence and intesnity of this problem. So create clearer rules. Explicitly clear. And if you still want to ban someone, even though they didn't break these rules. Do so. Beacuse you can. Just quit acting like you don't have the power to do what you want. Its your game. Be clear with your expectations. Or should I go back to the business as usual of privately lobbying admin's to act on my behalf? (or rather, to prevent them from listening to my enemy and acting on their behalf?) Edited By: Oilios Katastrefor on Year 8 Day 348 12:27

Year 8 Day 348 12:37	Clarification
Oilios Katastrefor	And one more comment. Fear of getting banned does not always fall equally on either side. Let me put this in terms of game theroy, where youre actions are decided based upon what the others might do. Two assumption here: 1) Punishment is given out in proportion to the crime. 2) The potential to do damage is on par with the possible punishment. These are both dubious assumptions, becasue frankly people tend to get very light bans (and perhaps they should, mercy is a virtue). However I do not think of any situation where someone has gotten more punishment than they deserved for clearly breaking the spying rules. For example, group a and b are at war. Group A decides not to infiltrate. Group B chooses to infiltrate. Neither group faces any punishment but both groups do not know this. In this situation, the group that failed to go into the grey area is put at a disadvantage. Those who do not try and skirt around the letter of the law are punished while those who do are. Consider the other circumstance - Group A decides not to infiltrate. Group B chooses to infiltrate. Group B is caught and punished (at best) in proportion to the damage caused. In this situation, neither side is at a disadvantage. Unjust actions recieve the appropriate punishment. In situation 1, the just group that doesn't infiltrate recieves a net loss. In situation 2, they break even. The group that does break even, in situation 1, they get ahead, and in situation 2, they break even. Either way, the best outcome group A can hope for is to not recieve a lost, and to hope that the enemy is not attempting to infiltrate. The worst that can happen to group B is they break even, and they get a punishment appropriate to the crime. On the other hand, the proper way to do this would be to eliminate the ambiguity in the rules to ensure punishment, and set out clearly what those punishments are, so that people are properly d etered from playing outside what the admin's view as acceptable behaviour.

Year 8 Day 348 13:15	Clarification
Hal Breden	There are two problems I foresee straight off the bat, Oilios: 1) By reducing the rules to a specific number of explicitly clear circumstances, you do not allow room for situations not covered in those rules. It is impossible to consider every possible action that may be taken in advance of it being taken. Then, as soon as someone acts outside the rules, you have a problem that it isn't covered by ANYTHING. With rules that are more vague in nature and cover general principles rather than specific instances, you have an area of coverage for unexpected actions to fall into. Saying that people can be punished even when they don't break the stated rules creates more chaos and confusion, both with people being "unfairly" punished, and with complaints about actions not covered by the rules. 2) The issue is not necessarily about punishing those caught breaking the rules, it's about catching them in the first place. I mean really, if I wanted to infiltrate Eidola (assuming Keir would take me), stay there for 6 months to a year to learn everything I could about them, then leave to give that information to groups fighting Eidola, how are you going to prove anything? I could as easily have joined Eidola in good faith, stayed there a year, gotten sick of stealing and decided to leave... and give out the information I had acquired during my stay. The end result is the same. To catch someone generally requires them to be impatient and/or stupid. Or for you to be very lucky. It's probably fair to say that the rules are there because most people will obey them simply because they are there, rather than being there to specifically catch and punish people breaking them - because most of them won't be caught. ____________ "May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies." Only fools and children dream of heroes.

1 2 3 4

Logged in as
Guest