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Year 11 Day 264 0:22
Icarus Carinae

Me again on the Sentinel Shuttle pilot problem again. Only back becuase the answer to my question was there was a canonization of ships happening, with it not happening except on a specific basis (or whatever Veynom meant, that's how I interpreted it).

The Sentinel has room for 60 passengers, which all well and good but that leaves no room for the pilots which is not good for landing on planets. All other shuttles make room for pilots of various amounts correlating to the size of their cockpit and in most cases is dead on to canon. Sentinel doesn't need to be canon (which it isn't, 60 is a well cut number) but it does need at least one seat for the pilot. It affects game play a lot.

Can someone look into this?

The gameplay is considered as more important than having some "canon" stats

- Veynom
 



Edited By: Icarus Carinae on Year 11 Day 264 0:26
Year 11 Day 264 0:26
Teyacapan Quetzalxochitl

Doesn't it have room for 59 passengers apart from the pilot?


Year 11 Day 264 0:27
I'm uncertain what the gameplay issue is with 'only' holding 60 passengers total?


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 11 Day 264 0:53
Yeah... The revision listed had room for 73, with a minimum (the crew including the pilot, I'd think) of 5. Where is the issue?


Year 11 Day 264 8:50
You do realise that pilot PCs would count as a Passenger, not crew? Which is one of the reason a lot of ships have 1 less crew than canon, to take that into account.


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Ellias_sig6.png
Year 11 Day 264 11:40
Which is stupid as the pilot is obviously a crew member, not a passenger. =p


Year 11 Day 265 18:41
Icarus Carinae

I believe others stated the further reasons, while this is not the only ship in a predicament it is the one on my attention at the moment. And while I would love for it to be 73, 61 is all that's required, why is 59 after pilot not good.

60/12 = 5 , that's 5 squads

59/12 = 4 squads

Game play and Canon both require more, but canon is out the window so all I'm saying is 1 more.


Year 11 Day 265 20:23
Xavze Zavan

I agree the Sentinel capacity if far too high...it obviously should be lowered to 49.


Year 11 Day 265 20:48
Icarus Carinae

Wow, that's...so...


Year 11 Day 265 21:21
Xavze Zavan

so..what?..ridiculous and silly as this suggestion?

60 passengers in a ship the size of Sentinel in something that is envied by all.Add in they are NPC-able..you have a passenger capacity of 12x60=720-1=719.

This is killing your gameplay?


Year 11 Day 265 22:07
49 would mean 4 squads plus the pilot

60 passengers in a ship the size of Sentinel in something that is envied by all.Add in they are NPC-able..you have a passenger capacity of 12x60=720-1=719. 


Umm, what? How does 'passenger' = 'squad'? Ah must be missing something, please explain


Year 11 Day 268 19:48
Freighters are NPC'able?


Edited By: Inronkini Wanneng Alani on Year 11 Day 268 19:51
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Whom always wins.
Year 11 Day 268 20:11
Shuttles are.


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Ellias_sig6.png
Year 11 Day 268 22:26
Icarus Carinae

Zavan seems to ignore some basic principles. The ground command skill effects how many squads you can control. Therefore we can extrapolate that since the space command skill exists, that it will affect how many freighters you can control.

Regardless, the same skills but a more central relevant problem to the here and now. you NPC 12 Sentinels, even with 5 ground command you have 72 soldiers total. What fun, 7 sentinels have a single squad and five are empty.

If you want to think about...one shuttle is easier to shpot down then two, if anything I'm making it easier for the FF to have an advantage on the battle field.

Yes 49 is 4*12+1 , you can multiply and add...now Google division, do you have your parents permission to play this game?

Need I mention the Sentinel is a drastically stat reduced ship and adding the 1 extra passenger would be working towards balance not away from it. I'll wait for someone to try and say otherwise, I do have a long and lengthy response.


Year 11 Day 268 23:01
Teyacapan Quetzalxochitl

Is it absolutely necessary right now or can it wait for some mythical stat review that may never happen?

It is not and it can.


Year 11 Day 268 23:14
Zavan seems to ignore some basic principles. The ground command skill effects how many squads you can control. Therefore we can extrapolate that since the space command skill exists, that it will affect how many freighters you can control. 


You can extrapolate all you want. It won't do you much good when Xavze is quoting the actual rules that exist right now. You can NPC sentinels in 12s.


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 11 Day 269 19:18
Icarus Carinae

You ignored everything after the first paragraph (why do people do this?)


Regardless, the same skills but a more central relevant problem to the here and now. you NPC 12 Sentinels, even with 5 ground command you have 72 soldiers total. What fun, 7 sentinels have a single squad and five are empty.

- Icarus Carinae
 


Therefore its only worth having two shuttles, maybe three if you expect to actually lose ships. I quote rules too. I don't see what the problem is. Why would the passenger size for a shuttle designed for troop transport be designed to have an incomplete squad? May I remind everyone that the sentinel is already drastically impaired by 4 removed heavy lasers, 2 blasters, lacking a capacity for 75 soldiers not including the pilots and gunners, and no ability to carry smaller vehicles. This is just to show that it has reduced stats to bring balance to the game which sensible.

So far though I've only seen red herrings and then selective reading to attempt to cover up the fact that I called him out on it. There has yet to be any presented downsides to this minute change.


Year 11 Day 269 19:37
I ignored everything else because I didn't really care about anything but your falacious "extrapolation".

But if you insist...

What makes you base your calculations on the pilot being the only one with squads in the shuttles? If one person can command squads that fit inside 2 sentinels, then 6 people can command squads that fit inside 12 sentinels. Except that's wrong, isn't it?

You list 72 people, and Xavze's calculations on passenger capacity put it at 720. So that's 10 times as many, not 6 times as many. Now, even allowing for the pilot, and also for an additional individual to command each set of 72 NPCs, you're only going to have to leave behind one squad of NPCs to fit these 11 people in. And you'll have space for 1 person left over. Assuming, of course, you can find 9 people with a ground command skill of 5, and one with a skill of 4.

Now, if you're smart, you're going to put all those PCs in the ship with the pilot, along with a bunch of NPCs, and fill the other ships just with NPCs. Assuming that what I recall reading about NPC vessels being destroyed first is correct, which I can't seem to actually find at the moment. I guess that one will have to wait until we see more rules to become part of the final plan. But if correct, then they'll need to destroy all 12 sentinels before killing any PCs.


And now that I've gotten all the way through that before looking at the ground combat rules, there seems to be an extra error in your calculations. Each PC can command their own party, plus one squad, PLUS Ground Command number of squads.

So someone with GC of 5 will be able to command 7 squads of 12, not 6, which would be 84. Which would be 8 full squads, plus PCs, making 681 people on the sentinels, allowing for 39 other support personnel. Or if the pilot has even a 1 in Ground Command, he could command 36 people himself, potentially in defence of the ships if they were to remain on the ground.


Edited By: Hal Breden on Year 11 Day 269 19:38
____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 11 Day 269 21:36
Plus, who says that in canon 12 people were a squad, if you are trying to compare canon stats of a ship to SWC gameplay.


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Ellias_sig6.png
Year 11 Day 269 21:42
Icarus Carinae

What makes you base your calculations on the pilot being the only one with squads in the shuttles? If one person can command squads that fit inside 2 sentinels, then 6 people can command squads that fit inside 12 sentinels. Except that's wrong, isn't it? 


And 12 people can command squads that fit in 24 Sentinels can't they. The purpose of NPC'ing other shuttles is so that you do not require the help of another PC.

You list 72 people, and Xavze's calculations on passenger capacity put it at 720. So that's 10 times as many, not 6 times as many. Now, even allowing for the pilot, and also for an additional individual to command each set of 72 NPCs, you're only going to have to leave behind one squad of NPCs to fit these 11 people in. And you'll have space for 1 person left over. Assuming, of course, you can find 9 people with a ground command skill of 5, and one with a skill of 4. 


If the appropriate skills were present and a group foolish enough to have a single pilot for multiple PC's then a group of 12 Sentinels could carry the combat power of about 600 NPC's. You can't cut squads in half and it would be ill advised to go into a fight with an already depleted squad. Most of these would be reduced to 48 man strength becuase of the PC, and yes you would need about 10 people with insane ground command skills which is highly unlikely and wasteful for a military, which only helps show putting up large numbers and crying "not balanced" is a crock (con with next quote).

Now, if you're smart, you're going to put all those PCs in the ship with the pilot, along with a bunch of NPCs, and fill the other ships just with NPCs. Assuming that what I recall reading about NPC vessels being destroyed first is correct, which I can't seem to actually find at the moment. I guess that one will have to wait until we see more rules to become part of the final plan. But if correct, then they'll need to destroy all 12 sentinels before killing any PCs. 


So you've decided to separate your PC's from their squads to be able to put in a few more squads based on the idea that you want to keep the PC's alive. You expand your number of troops to 708 dis-including the 12 or less PCs in the primary shuttle commanding them. Now all 708 of the NPC's are taken to one single target, and you weren't even expecting all the shuttle to make it to the ground.

And now that I've gotten all the way through that before looking at the ground combat rules, there seems to be an extra error in your calculations. Each PC can command their own party, plus one squad, PLUS Ground Command number of squads.

So someone with GC of 5 will be able to command 7 squads of 12, not 6, which would be 84. Which would be 8 full squads, plus PCs, making 681 people on the sentinels, allowing for 39 other support personnel. Or if the pilot has even a 1 in Ground Command, he could command 36 people himself, potentially in defence of the ships if they were to remain on the ground.

 


Your are certainly correct, I did not use the correct number of someone having skill level 5, 72 is a number recurring in much of the paper work I'm currently doing.

Again, being able to NPC shuttles is avoiding the subject and only making my grounds stronger. You can NPC all shuttles so if you wish to use the foolish operations mentioned above you can do it with most of the shuttles and with the rarity of people with level 4 and 5 ground command it's very doubtful that even large factions could pull off that maneuver even if they tried.

So let us again revert to the idea that an NPC will be piloting a Shuttle or two with all his NPC's, the Sentinel has 60 passengers...how can it not be obvious that it's supposed to have that many troopers. The only way to know for sure about the original intentions is ask who first dubbed that number or compare all current shuttles with their canon stats.

Gamma Assault Shuttle Max Passengers: 45
Canon: Passengers 40 spacetroopers
-Room for Pilot, purpose for space troopers not dropship

DX-9 Dropship Max Passengers: 25
Canon: Passengers 30 stormtroopers or 10 Space troopers, 5 crew
-Possible average + 5 for crew, or 2 squads and a pilot

Lambda Shuttle Max Passengers: 17
Canon: 20+ passengers
-a definite cut, in this case we have the illusive 12 squad + 5 for crew

So yes if 61 is such a horrible thing then reduce the number to 49 or 53, either way 60 doesn't work.


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