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Year 13 Day 245 5:11
Eshaar Gnor

It seems to me from reading the recent SIM News that a PC or NPCs weapon skill is not a factor in their ability to hit a target but only serves to increase the damage done if a hit is scored?

I really hope that this is not the case as if it is does anyone other than me find it a little unusually for ones skill in something to not be a factor in its success? Surly if I am an 'expert' (Level 5) with a weapon then I should hit what I am aiming at more often then the novice with skill 1? Yes perhaps Dexterity comes into play, but surely your skill is relevant to your chance to hit also?

As for skill increasing damage? Well perhaps that is justifiable also, though I would have thought strength for a melee weapon might also come into play. But they are minor points.

Any reasonable person upon looking at the skills list would have assumed that having a high skill in a field would have meant a higher success chance, but it seems from what was posted that this is not the case with combat, it seems now that the most relevant skills for combat are Dexterity & dodge, your poor old weapon skill seems to take a dismal last place as you might not even hit regadless of its level if you have a poor dexterity!

Odd?


Year 13 Day 245 6:00
Jesfa


It can be easily argued that by having superior Projectile Weapons, that when I hit my target, I tend to hit them in their head/chest/shoot off their arm. Incomparison to those with a 0 may just graze their foot.


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Year 13 Day 245 6:27
Eshaar Gnor

Jesfa,

Do you not find it rather backwards that if I have a high crafting skill then I can craft better, If I have a high Infantry command skill than I can command more troops, If I have a high fighter pilot skill than I can pilot a fighter better, BUT if I have a high projectile weapons skill I can not hit the target any better?

The present arrangements mean that someone who doesn't even know which end of the rifle to point at you can hit you more ofetn if they have a higher dexterity than you who are an expert with level 5 in projectile weapons? Surly I am not the only one who must think that just a little odd.

Come on what other game in the history of gaming, be it pen & paper, PC based of internet drive has ha a system where the weapons skill has no baring on hitting your target?

A better solution & am far mor reasonable one is that your chance to hit should be:

Weapon Skill + Dexterity v's Dexterity + Dodge + of cause the random factor.

Dexterity should affect both your ability to attack & defend, But come one your skill with the weapon MUST help you hit the target.


Year 13 Day 245 7:28
Jesfa


Except you are hitting your target better. You're just also hitting it just as often no matter what skill.

I personally would rather see weapon skill, dexterity, and perception all used to formulate your damage and hits, but that's just me.


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Year 13 Day 245 7:29
Teyacapan Quetzalxochitl

No, I'm pretty sure that's most people.


Year 13 Day 245 8:30
Dexterity should affect both your ability to attack & defend, But come one your skill with the weapon MUST help you hit the target. 


Because when we TYPE things in all CAPS, our OPINIONS become FACTS.

#ROMNEY2012


Year 13 Day 245 11:44
Yep I hear you Eshaar, and in a non-KISS world I would agree with you.

Jefsa's explanation is wholly reasonable to me nonetheless. I would add that Skill with a weapon is analogous to utilizing a weapon at a higher level or using a weapon with a higher complexity.

Unless they've ditched the Projectile Skill Requirements aspect entirely (they may have) then the Weapon Skill is actually peripherally factored into the To-Hit via a penalty if you're attempting to use a weapon too complicated for your skill level.

Dexterity is the ability to hit what you're aiming for (ie Hand-eye/ear/whatever coordination), and Weapons Skills is knowing the weapon well enough to aim for the right places and to inflict additional damage. Illustrative example: I have a butterfly knife. I can stab you with it, using my dexterity to make the hit. If I'm skilled with a butterfly knife, then I know how to properly twist the knife to create an open wound.


I Would, however, advocate for a more complicated to-hit formula to try to get a broader set of skills, which probably will end up in a Suggestions thread somewhere:

e.g. Splitting into three components and weighting them appropriately for game balance: (Dex vs Dodge + Random factor) + (Off. Weap Skill vs. Def. Weap Skill + Random Factor) + (Perception v. Stealth + Random Factor)

Rationale for the first is moot as it's already implemented. Rationale for the 2nd is that there would be a benefit to both attacking and defending from a particular weapon given a proficiency in each. IE if I'm better at using my sword THAN the other guy, then I have a slight advantage to getting a hit and a slight advantage to dodging(parrying) his/her attack. For a Projectile example, if I have skill with Projectiles, I know more about how they fire, what kind of arcs they have and what timing is available, so I could be able to get a bonus to dodging the shots IF my skill is greater than that of my opponents'. Caveat: There's an issue with #2 due to the Lightsabre Combat skill not being takeable by Non-FS, meaning they would get 0 Bonus to hit a lightsabre wielder, and be subject to a bonus against them in defending against a lightsabre wielder.

3rd is Jefsa's, but basically the idea is that Perception imparts a bonus to anticipate an opponent's efforts to Dodge, and Stealth also imparts a bonus to Dodge via being analogous to Feinting.


Edited By: Kay Dallben on Year 13 Day 245 11:46
Year 13 Day 245 12:01
Unless they've ditched the Projectile Skill Requirements aspect entirely  

Yes that's gone.

There is a random factor involved in hits that Dexterity contributes to, but unless your opponent has a particularly high Dodge skill, you should still be hitting much of the time. These values are still being constantly adjusted.


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Year 13 Day 245 13:47
Eshaar Gnor

Mikel,

saying something Caps is merley emohasising the point not as you put it making it a fact.

...............................

Anyway what the end result of this fomular means given that weapon skill no longer has any bearing on your ability to hit the target is that I shoudl go & hire a bunch of gymnists & ballet dancers with high dexterities because they will have a greater chance of hitting their targets than the 10 year trained combat vet, simply because they have a greater dexterity? Very very Odd!

I understand the logic behind a greater skill resulting in a greater damage but that is pointless if your greater skill doesn't allow you to hit the target. I also accept that a person with no dexterity should be at a dissadvantage but so t shoudl someone with no skill in the weapon they are using.

What you have established here is a system were an agile ill trained person with a sword will hit the highly trained and less agile person mor often? I am sorry if I & I suspect the majority of the players find that just completely wrong.

Combining both Dex & Wpn skill as your hit chance make far more logical sense. Yes I know it is a game & the mechanics are the mechanics, but come on they should make some sense.


Year 13 Day 245 17:41
I think you're missing the point, Eshaar, and your last post is setting up inaccurate comparisons (e.g. a 10 year trained combat vet is not the same as having Weap Skill 5, most notably because the 10-year trained combat vet's training is represented in his/her Dexterity at aiming as well as his/her ability to use the Tool/Weapon; 2nd E.G. high Dexterity = Gymnast and ballet dancers only) Straw man arguments are silly.

Your statement was "But come one[sic] your skill with the weapon MUST help you hit the target." Your purported support is "come on". Two strong words, I'll grant you, but have no real persuasive power. You're positioning your thesis like a fact by virtue of your emphasis on "must", when it is a proposition that is arguable, and you offer no further or persuasive explanation as to why it must.

You don't persuade anyone by just insisting more loudly (ie Caps) that your thesis is correct.

I disagree with your new contention that greater damage is pointless without bringing along a bonus to one's To-Hit roll. Trade-offs are common in most Games and in life as well. Take any Barbarian class in D&D or otherwise, where they focus on being able to hit extremely hard as opposed to hitting extremely often. They miss a lot, but when they do hit, they do a lot of damage. It's just a different style of fighting, and it's up to you entirely whether you choose to employ that method, or seek the finesse of high Dexterity. An unlucky barbarian may get slain by a thousand tiny cuts, or the barbarian might slay the thief with a lucky massive blow.

Further, someone with no skill in a weapon is, in fact, already at a disadvantage, just as you say someone with no dexterity is at a disadvantage. Though the high-dex person may hit more often, they will not do as much damage when they do, and therefore have the potential for a net DPS that is comparable to someone with a high weapon skill and low dex, all things being equal and fates being impartial.

Ultimately, in SWC, Dexterity = Hand-eye coordination in the broadest sense. Weapon Skill = Ability to utilize a particular type of weapon to its full effectiveness in imparting it's main purpose --- Damaging one's opponent. These are the definitions, and your stopping block, I believe, is imparting further meaning to them by virtue of RL nomenclature and roles that people play.

If we're going to complicate the To-Hit equation, we would want to build everything under the sun in. To keep balance, however, and to keep it simple, we have it the way it is, as a single skill vs. a single skill.


Edited By: Kay Dallben on Year 13 Day 245 17:47
Year 13 Day 245 17:50
First of all, the argument here seems only to be about the naming of skills, which is a bit silly as that can easily be changed.

Second, the random attribute of equations is highly relevant as it determines how heavily any particular skill is weighed. That information is not public at this time. Zhao may or may not add it to the rules. But either way that is subject to change as well.

Lastly, I posted this in General forum earlier; I'll repeat it here as it is appropriate and highly relevant:

Regarding the ongoing skills discussion, there is no need to worry! This is still undergoing much discussion and there will continue to be changes. Remember that this is the very reason bandit/creature combat exists in the first place: so that equations can be put in place and skill usage can be adjusted to reflect the desired outcome. This cannot be done on dev because there are not enough data points to track how combat is working out, hit:miss ratios compared to skills, damage done/taken, etc. The data via bandits and creatures are vital.

The current format is not the final format, but it is significantly closer than the previous placeholder equation was. Just relax and be patient and remember that none of this can kill you anyhow. :]

Lastly, in case of significant changes to skill functions, Zhao has mentioned that another skill reset would not be outside of the realm of possibility. Ideally it can be avoided, but the option exists, so there is no need to panic if a skill suddenly ceases doing what it originally claimed to. However, that would not be considered until everything has been tweaked some more and perhaps finalized altogether. This is just one big beta test, in essence.

I am not trying to discourage feedback, only to silence some fears and complaints because these things are premature. 


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Year 13 Day 245 18:43
Kain Elderan

I guess for me, I can see both sides of the argument. I have no issue with Dexterity being used in calculating your chance to hit. The thing that did annoy me a little was that this change was made *after* the skill reset - if I had of known Dexterity would be used in such a way, I definitely would have put more points into it then I did. So for now I'm just hoping another skill reset does come about. If it doesn't, well.. I'm still happy that I was able to put points that I wasted from 8 years ago into more useful places. ;)


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Year 13 Day 245 19:34
That is entirely your fault for not reading the skill description, though. :p The mouseover for Dexterity has said all along it would be used for hit.


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Year 13 Day 245 23:48
Jubb

A lot of the rules need to be re-written as they are incorrect and some skills have had those mouse overs for years, but all of a sudden are removed. It's no surprise that people didn't consider what the text said when they were trying to assign points.

I myself didn't read the mouse overs, though for the most part i'm happy with my skills. I am however annoyed at waiting a few days after the initial skill reset (so as to avoid any last minute changes getting dropped on me), only to have to pick my skills just so i could modify my IFF list and then find this skill change goes through a few hours later. Preeeeetty lame timing there and I probably would've put an extra point into dexterity.


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Year 13 Day 246 0:36
Eshaar Gnor

It is very pleasing to see the latest edit to the SIM News & the inclusion of your actual skill in using a weapon in the equation to use it.

Thank you to the Administration staff who have taken the time to listen to comments & for all your continued hard work in making this game what it is & what it can become.


Year 13 Day 246 2:18
Jesfa


It's no surprise that people didn't consider what the text said when they were trying to assign points. 


How did you know what you were putting your skills into then, would be the argument? >_>


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Year 13 Day 246 2:36
Kain Elderan

Syn,

You are correct that is said that, as it has said that for years now. However one would not infer that it was going to be used as the primary "to-hit" skill, especially with very specific skills geared towards specific weapon types. However, seeing the recent Sim News post I think this argument is rather moot now anyways. :P Thanks!


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Year 13 Day 247 21:17
Interestingly, my To-Hit average was running in the 90% range, until the recent change to add Weapons Skill at half-power to the Dex vs. the target's Dodge formula.

I'm no slouch in Weapons skill (Gran have a 2 point PW bonus to start), but now, instead of being better at hitting, my percentage has dropped to around 80%. This has been almost entirely against critters with no bonuses to dodge.

I understand that there is a randomness built into the equation, and yes, only two-three days may be too small an amount of datapoints to adequately determine what's causing this.

But I'd like to know: has there been an additional change made to the Target's defense, in addition to the Dodge skill, that has been factored into the equation?

Or have the stats for creatures been modified to include, say, a Dodge bonus that isn't in the text descriptions?





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Year 13 Day 247 22:01
Yes, dodge random factor is slightly higher than before to account for the ability to add another 2.5 "points" to your hit, so if you have a low weapon skill your chance to hit may be a bit lower than when only dexterity was taken into account.


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Year 13 Day 247 22:15
Is there a maximum on either side of the equation, irrespective of the random factor?

For example, can you get better than 5 in attacking modifiers (Dex + 1/2 Weapons Skill)?

I'm guessing the answer is "Yes, the max is 7.5."

Also, Syn: Thank you for getting rid of the Green bathing beauty sig. You are so much cooler looking as Kevin Kilne in a mustache.



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