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Year 18 Day 93 14:00
Ulrike Rayne Schultheiss

We did answer when it becomes abuse (though come to think of it the real term that should be used is misuse per discussion in the help channel).

In summary:

You're misusing the feature if you have too few of players to accommodate the dcs. You're abusing the feature if you intentionally got a bunch of players to hop into the faction, got a bunch of dcs, and then had the players leave or quit combine. The outcome for both situation is the same, however. The excess dcs should be surrendered as soon as possible. How they're surrendered at this current time might depend on context, but in the hopeful (not guaranteed) future, this will be handled by an automated process much like faction dissolution.


Edited By: Ulrike Rayne Schultheiss on Year 18 Day 93 14:01
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Year 18 Day 93 14:09
Relain Dala

An automated countdown solution would be more welcomed. Case in point, we check member status every 14 days. Right now in the GEC we have 9 active members, one will be considered inactive if he does not login tomorrow... So I should delete - sell the DC for no credit exchange doesn't even sound right - 2 of our item DCs or whateve because he didn't login? What happens if two inactives come back the day after that and our count goes to ten? I mean are we expected to keep paying and or losing credits every time member status changes? As I said earlier, why bother?


Edited By: Relain Dala on Year 18 Day 93 14:10
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Year 18 Day 93 14:12
Ulrike Rayne Schultheiss

Currently that's up to the asims to decide until something better is in place. I have no doubt that they'll give you some time to get your ducks in a row, whether that be more players or dropping the DCs, though. Kay and I have discussed some automated solutions (I posted the idea in here earlier) which do include a countdown timer before the game would automatically start removing dcs, but we'd have to get the ideas approved by selatos before it could even be considered for implementation.


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Year 18 Day 93 14:40
Fluctuations in login patterns happen, and I believe the intention is to strike a reasonable and convenient balance between maintaining DCs across a short time of membership dipping (expected minor variances from substantial compliance) and preventing regular cycling of members to keep access to more DCs than your faction ought to be entitled to (misuse/abuse). It's not an easy task to automate but there's ideas.

Since you're probably aware of how long it's been that you have had 15 slots of DCs and 9ish members, maybe you really ought to plan to get your ducks in a row to within 1 or 2 members (slots) now - even if that does cost you a bit of money having to re-buy a chosen DC if your membership hops up again.

By my count GEC has 15.5 slots. If you have 9 members, you've overshot your entitlement by 6.5 slots. You get 1 slot for each member, not 5 + 1 slot for each member. I'd say no matter what you have some DCs to shed, so it's reasonable to take some action one way or another.

The "urgency" of the action is well above my pay grade, but in my opinion the longer you've benefitted from way more DC Slots than members, the sooner you should cut back.


Year 18 Day 93 14:58
Simkin Dragoneel

This discussion jogged my memory from something long ago... so I actually took a look for it today and found it.

On July 9, 2015 right after we tested the generics that was actually brought up. I will put the relevant snippet here:

___________________________________________________________
Session Start: Thu Jul 09 00:00:01 2015
Session Ident: #swc-dev

[01:34] |%Sims| what happens if you lose members
[01:34] |%Sims| are you to lose DCs? or do they stay?
[01:34] |&selatos| can't buy any more until you go over the limit
[01:34] |%Sims| works for me
[01:34] |&selatos| or sell down
[01:34] |&selatos| when you buy one the others should update
[01:34] |&selatos| with a net total requirement
[01:35] |&selatos| i suppose it is abusable to have a bunch of people jump in and buy like 10 DCs and then just never change them but maybe we'll come up with another solution in the future
[01:35] |&selatos| i was against the idea of buying uses for DCs directly
[01:35] |&selatos| because that just adds another semi-arbitrary cost to entities
[01:35] |%Sims| yeah, it is kinda abusable in that scenario
[01:35] |&selatos| but it is one possibility nonetheless
[01:36] |%Sims| Tis honestly something I could do pretty easy, others could to
[01:36] |&mikelsewhere| maybe a timer
[01:36] |%Sims| I have a pretty decent amount of members in my factions, throw them all into one to buy generics, then have them hop back
[01:36] |&mikelsewhere| must be in the faction for 30 days or something
[01:36] |&mikelsewhere| don't know if we can track that
[01:36] |&selatos| seems tedious, mikel
[01:36] |&selatos| but we could yeah
[01:36] |&selatos| there's a faction join stamp
[01:36] |&selatos| i think
[01:37] |&mikelsewhere| oh yeah
[01:37] |%Sims| hmmmmm
[01:37] |&mikelsewhere| there is indeed
[01:37] |&mikelsewhere| 7 days maybe
[01:37] |&mikelsewhere| 30 seems a bit much
[01:37] |%Sims| or just auto pull if it lowers below in like 14 days?
[01:37] |&selatos| i don't think automatically removing anything will be a good idea
[01:37] |&selatos| risky
[01:37] |&mikelsewhere| don't allow them to produce/assign DC uses if members drop below the number for 14 days?
[01:38] |&selatos| ugh i don't want to go around modifying even more code :p
[01:38] |&selatos| localized solutions!
[01:38] |&mikelsewhere| I dont know
[01:38] |&selatos| we could have something like
[01:38] |&mikelsewhere| it seems abusable no matter what we try
[01:38] |&selatos| buying a DC buys a batch of production runs
[01:38] |%Sims| Faction dissolve is 14 days so the number of days is good at least :(
[01:38] |&selatos| even though i don't want it
[01:38] |&mikelsewhere| would there be a limit
[01:39] |&mikelsewhere| or could I buy like 10000 uses at once
[01:39] |&selatos| each purchase would probably cost members and money at the time
[01:39] |%Sims| ..... what is we tie the members into the dissolve timer?
[01:39] |&mikelsewhere| that seems incredibly tedious
[01:39] |&selatos| so if they were in bundles of 1k for a specific dc
[01:39] |&selatos| and you bought 10k
[01:39] |&selatos| you'd need 10xslots members
[01:39] |&selatos| and 50mxslots
[01:40] |&selatos| meh this is abusable either way
[01:40] |&mikelsewhere| mmm, a little better than what I thought you were saying
[01:40] |%Sims| so if you have generics for 15 members, and you fall below for 14 days the faction dissolves unless you sell the DC's?
[01:40] |&selatos| no
[01:40] |&selatos| we're not doing that
[01:40] |&mikelsewhere| I'd say let the asims sort out abuse but they don't seem to be able to take on that load
[01:41] |&selatos| we'll just let it ride for now i guess
[01:41] |&selatos| and adjust in a month if it is an issue
_________________________________________________________________

However, I really don't have the ability to understand why anyone would think that infusing a ton of members in to merely pull them shortly after is not an abuse of the system. I took the time to actually check TJO's membercount with their generic count today and found it to be in compliance which made me happy. I admit that because we only bought DC's when we had actual upsurges in members based off recruitment I really didn't pay any attention for the most part to the amounts because I knew I wasn't trying to screw the system. I can understand if someone perhaps is 4 or less members out of compliance because it can easily go overlooked, but really if you are stacking up 40 memberslots or things over a gov level and then go down to less than 10 that is easily seen as willful abuse.


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Year 18 Day 94 2:57
Fulco D`Este

So what will exactly be the rules for datacard revokation? Within what time limit and what kind of leniency is there if your member count dropped due to members joining other faction to set for example mines to work, or to build other faction specific facilities? Will it be based on an average number of members in the past weeks, or?


Year 18 Day 94 3:50
[05:06:02] @Superman> To be completely fair to everyone, DCs will be reduced to the number of slots you were eligible for when the investigation was done.
[05:06:13] @Superman> (Yesterday)
[05:06:35] @Superman> If you would like to know how many members you had and how many slots you were using when we checked, I can PM you that information.

Please keep in mind:
[05:08:40] @Superman> Any coded method would have punished you for the fluctuation long ago.
[05:09:05] @Superman> You can still buy DCs back and shuffle them, or you can bring yourself down to the appropriate value before I get to you.


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Year 18 Day 94 4:36
The original faction I referenced just dropped from 46 to 5.5 slots.


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Year 18 Day 94 4:59
Please refer to the SimNews for any updates.


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May your path be swift, and your pockets heavy:
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Year 18 Day 94 5:25
Thank you for the mess this has caused in manufacturing land.
This all happened within a period of 1 day time! Our events are flooded with factions that revoked in panic DC's. I'm amazed there is no time provided to let the factions re-organize their businesses. This is a sudden enforcement of the rules I haven't seen before in SWC.

And since there is progress; Combat please. ;)



Edited By: Amirantha Dahrii on Year 18 Day 94 5:57
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Year 18 Day 94 6:39
FYI, the revoke events appear like the faction revoked them - that's the result of the datacards being lost. Most factions likely did not actively revoke assignments.


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Year 18 Day 94 6:52
Memnoch

Bad rules and now bad solutions to fix them. Who will compensate loss of DCs that were bought?


Year 18 Day 94 7:05
Compensate you? Are you serious?

If a faction with generics hasn't made a killing after this long, you should be worried about rethinking your entire business strategy and less about how you'll get 40m back.


Year 18 Day 94 7:12
Dahn Vassic

The issue as it's being pointed out isn't so much about the factions that were messing with the DC systems, but rather, their customers.

What we've got now is both the factions that were in violation of the rules having their DC's revoked (Rightly so, don't get me wrong) but also people who were renting DC's from them. Why are they being penalized (IC, no less) because of actions they had nothing to do with in any way?

This also happened very fast. Didn't there used to be a small grace period when factions had rules violations issues for them to fix things? "Factions who don't have X have 24 hours to fix them" and so on.



Year 18 Day 94 7:12
Ignoring the business strategy, why should factions be compensated for abusing the rules and losses of future profit from said abuse?


Year 18 Day 94 7:18
If factions produced things instead of rented out DCs, they would not have to compensate people from lost profits due to DC revocations.


Year 18 Day 94 7:19
It's been three days so far and I don't believe the datacard audit, if you will, has been completed or at least fully carried out. It's only a matter of time at this point. Any grace period would be at the discretion of the Sim Master, but I doubt that one will be given since neither Selatos nor Erek announced one.

If you own datacards, you should probably be doing something. And if you rented datacards, you should probably be doing something else. *Hint hint*


Year 18 Day 94 7:22
Not every faction's purpose is to make a buck in the Combine. I believe this is one of the problems in this game, people assume that is the purpose behind every action.
Some would just like to be able to manufacture and supply others or their own with approximate rules based raw value products, including the production cost, and not have to pay the price hikes others charge.

As per the existing rules, there is no compensation for "selling"or in the case revoked, generic datacards to make up for required slot room.

Generics can be sold to free up slot room, in this case no money is returned.

- 1/ Generic Datacards
 





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Year 18 Day 94 7:25
Argo Viridian

@Tomas O`Cuinn: it smells like abuse, it sounds like abuse, it probably must be abuse. The rules text is sloppy.

Will we get an update to the rules text first (the law), before action is taken? [It ought to benefit when more than a comma is added.]
Especially maintenance requirements: same as with purchase or different on purpose?
Then everyone is crystal clear; irrespective of their cognisance or their alleged malicious intent.
Then show-cause notices can follow swiftly.
Then a manual sorting out of the starkest cases may follow.

This would be a more fair, yet assertive process and in the long run could not be seen as 'reactive'.

And: Will we get a coded check-up and coded follow through?
On the face of it, it seems like basic maths: compare DC-slot entitlements with actual DC-slot usage. An unfavourable mismatch triggers whatever is deemed true and proper as a follow up action. The manual version currently in progress seems to work that way.
If it is not 'that' simple, what are the obstacles? Lets hear them.


Edited By: Argo Viridian on Year 18 Day 94 7:37
Year 18 Day 94 7:33
Ulrike Rayne Schultheiss

The rule text is pretty clear.

As for the coded implementation, there aren't any actual details for it yet nor confirmation from selatos that it'll be implemented in code. However, there are ideas floating around about its implementation including locking out assignment and production until either members are met, dcs are discarded or a timer ticks down and deletes the most recent DC purchased. I don't have a say in its implementation unfortunately so outside of saying what ideas have popped up on the subject, I can't really give much information D:


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