Rim Commercial Mining
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Year 8 Day 127 22:09
Sasha Striker
Sasha Striker
I was told this was a better place to post this.


This evening out of boredom I was browsing the NPC market. I hadn't done this in some time and was surprised to see cities for sale in the old IA sector Brak. I looked a little further and saw no facilities associated with the cities. I wasn't surprised at all though I was puzzled. I inquired about it and this is the response I got from Bossive:

Kim (Sasha) says (11:15 PM):
why are all the elom cities for sale? lol
Bo says (11:16 PM):
20?
Bo says (11:16 PM):
its not all
Bo says (11:16 PM):
just the full ones
Bo says (11:16 PM):
dissolved.
Bo says (11:16 PM):
moola
Kim (Sasha) says (11:16 PM):
huh
Bo says (11:16 PM):
we dissolved some
Kim (Sasha) says (11:16 PM):
how do you do that?
Bo says (11:16 PM):
in s1mc
Kim (Sasha) says (11:16 PM):
oh ok
Kim (Sasha) says (11:17 PM):
but i assume the flats are not
Kim (Sasha) says (11:17 PM):
:P
Bo says (11:17 PM):
lol
Bo says (11:17 PM):
duh
Bo says (11:18 PM):
we have all the mines, factorys, warhouses, flats, hotels, offices, taverns.. not sure bout garages...
Bo says (11:18 PM):
we sold all the crappy income facils
Kim (Sasha) nods
Bo says (11:19 PM):
1m worth
Bo says (11:19 PM):
of income a month
Kim (Sasha) says (11:19 PM):
oooh
Bo says (11:19 PM):
we got like 13 from
Bo says (11:20 PM):
selling the shit :P


I've of course heard of this before and this is not what puzzled me. What does puzzle me is that if this faction dissolved and got money why did Koz and I not get a dime when Bounty Hunters Guild Dissolved due to lack of power to our headquarters interfering with our ability to accept new members into the faction. Eventually we dissolved due to inactivity. We received nothing and were told that the rules had changed and that Materials were no longer included. The rules page still shows the same thing that it did 6 months ago:


The faction assets are sold to the market for their current market value. Specific factions assets (see list in Factions: Faction Assets) will be destroyed after being sold. The money gathered with the selling is called the bankrupt capital. Each player owning some stocks of the faction will receive some money as follow. If one owns X stocks, then one will receive:
Equations
Money = (Bankrupt Capital * Owned Stocks) / Total Number of Stocks for that Faction

The faction capital is based on the server value of its owned assets. The following assets are counted in the faction capital:

* Ships: valued at 2x RMP
* Vehicles: valued at 2x RMP
* Facilities: valued at 2x RMP
* Space Stations: valued at 2x RMP
* Cities: valued at their creation price (see Cities rules)
* Raw Materials: valued at their Mining rules
* Credits
* Stocks: valued as defined in section 3

So since the rules haven't changed are we not entitled to the 160 million credits worth of assets that the faction had when it dissolved? Raw materials are clearly stated right there in the rules that still exist today. Someone explain this to me please.


Edited By: Sasha Striker on Year 8 Day 127 22:37
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Sashasiggy12.jpg\"
Koz Ofyurdeth
Koz Ofyurdeth
Nice of you to drudge up the old issue :p this is not a shock at all (what they are doing still), seeing as i was told Isooldor (the person who employs bossive) was the one who exploited it when i tried to get the credits for our lost assets. Good to see they keep doing the same thing , one day itl get to the point no one will get anything from any assets because of these people doing this crap.

Now as i said ive tried to get this resolved before , i showed Kyle the rules page the info and what happened and he agreed and said hed explain this and try to get it sorted so we got our money from the admin (he was on the admin team at the time of this and our conversations), he then had his back issues and had to leave swc for a time so it never did get any attention.

Seems to me with the hundreds of lil tweaks updates weeks of the simnews posts about them and the even new rules page design that has plenty of the updates and new info etc this is a simple change and should have been done a long time ago if this was a actual rule change, not left for others to go read assume oh i have assets my faction closes i get the credits for them as it says on the damn rules page. But when have things ever gone according to these "rules" as they are called. I didint exploit rules that are on the "rules" pages i didnt have a choice as to my company closing and i didny syphon off assets into the group to get as much out of it as i could , which is clearly the case with what these people are doing , yet i follow whats written it happens to me i get nothing and am told - oh ya we changed that cause of exploiting (we just didint bother to change it in the actual rules pages for years or do much about it from hapeneing over and over and over for others using other assets)... well this is utter nonsense frankly and id really like to see it reconsiled though doubt it ever will to my liking. AKA me getting whats clearly owed to me as per the rules page and events that occured under the rules.....


Edited By: Koz Ofyurdeth on Year 8 Day 127 23:07
Year 8 Day 127 23:06
Did the exact same thread have to be posted in multiple forums?

Was there anything else in your faction besides the RMs? Last I heard, anything that wasn't RMs still gave value normally. Did you file a bug report?

Those Elom cities have been there a long time. A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time. It wouldn't surprise me if those were in the same dissolve event that caused RMs to be removed from the equation, actually.
And really, if they want to dump full cities into a dissolving faction to clear up their inventory pages, then that's pretty much up to them. If you're going to dissolve a faction anyway, may as well get the most out of it happening, whatever form that benefit takes.


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 8 Day 127 23:18
Koz Ofyurdeth
Koz Ofyurdeth
I think she answered that at the begining of the post here.

Yes we got the small amount of credits for the few facilties and such that were in it, why would i file a bug report when i talked directly to an admin who said hed discuss it with the other admins and said hed try to get me what was clearly owed based on the events and rules pages at the time.

i dont see any point your last statements here make relevant to the issue. and if i recall correctly BHG dissolved before sm1 which means no its not why rm's were removed.
And your last statement is a nice endorsement of the exploitation they did before rm's were removed (seeing as thats exactly what they did with their rms to get as much out of a INTENTIONAL dissolving of a group) ..., nice for a SWC rules leader and SWC staff....


Year 8 Day 128 0:04
The incident with the RMs was not an exploit because they chose to dissolve the faction to turn them into credits, but rather because the value was skewed due to the mining equations in effect at the time. Getting 1.5 mill back from a city that they paid 1.5 mill for is something quite different, as there is no exploit of features involved in order to get more out of than it was really worth. If they have no further need for the cities, then getting rid of them (and of a variety of facilities that had already served their purpose) in this manner so they don't clutter up a screen that is already annoying to navigate was no bug or exploit.

On the other hand, leaving a large value of assets in a faction that you knew was going to dissolve (and when it was going to dissolve) seems nothing short of stupidity.


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 8 Day 128 0:15
Koz Ofyurdeth
Koz Ofyurdeth
then your explanation of why its ok must be just as stupid .... since that falls under exact reasons of why ... do i need resources i PAYED for and cant use or need anymore because i cant access them and am told i never will be able to, doi need them "cluttering up my inventories" and YES i mied them under the many NEW RULES after the changes , and if thats why they were changed then i more then deserve my credits for them since it cant be exploiting if ive mined them under rules changed due to this and payed the actual cost of what il be getting....

and on a side note the entire time we were working to get a hq powered or power to the current one (why would i remove assets if i was trying to keep the faction going ...) and then when we did we didnt have the members thing solved by then. and this IS NOT THE ISSUE ANYWAYS but figured i clear it up so you dont derail the actual topic at hand and start insulting more instead of oh i dunno adding soemthing helpful to the proceedings.

Anyways my above point is far sufficient to show your double angled explanation and attempted insult are unfounded, and theres far too many other points to go on from what your saying, about exploitation and rm prices and such. Il go in them in detail as i prepare my next post.


Edited By: Koz Ofyurdeth on Year 8 Day 128 0:27
Year 8 Day 128 14:39
then your explanation of why its ok must be just as stupid .... since that falls under exact reasons of why ... do i need resources i PAYED for and cant use or need anymore because i cant access them and am told i never will be able to, doi need them "cluttering up my inventories" and YES i mied them under the many NEW RULES after the changes , and if thats why they were changed then i more then deserve my credits for them since it cant be exploiting if ive mined them under rules changed due to this and payed the actual cost of what il be getting.... 


Except that there is no way to distinguish which RMs were mined under the old or new rules. There is no game restriction that would have prevented you from using those RMs, if they had not been in a group that dissolved. A full city, on the other hand, is a full city. There are a decent number of people who would like the ability to sell/give such things over to NPC control, and there have been suggestions to that aim. There is no such restriction on RMs.

why would i remove assets if i was trying to keep the faction going ... 


You know the date that the membership dissolution warning started. Therefore you know the date of the dissolution. If you know, a few hours before that deadline, that you won't have enough members to avoid dissolution, why would you NOT remove assets? You're already going to lose the faction, so why leave the assets in it as well?

adding soemthing helpful to the proceedings. 


I can add something helpful: Go and start a new thread in the Rules Update forum on the Message Centre pointing out the need to update the rules for this section. Whether you like it or not, that's the ONLY problem here. Unless you count a couple of faction leaders that would rather whine and complain in public than follow up their enquiry in private, as they began it.

Anyways my above point is far sufficient to show your double angled explanation and attempted insult are unfounded 


Your point above is barely literate, and demonstrates nothing.

Il go in them in detail as i prepare my next post. 


Can you run it through a spellchecker and grammar checker in detail as you prepare it, too?



You have one valid point - the rules pages are incorrect in that they still list RMs. Apart from that, RMs have nothing to do with cities, so you don't have an argument.


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 8 Day 128 15:16
Koz Ofyurdeth
Koz Ofyurdeth
adding soemthing helpful to the proceedings.  


I didnt think so ...


Year 8 Day 128 16:44
I suppose you're right. Expecting you to do something to actually help the game, and not just whine about your personal problems was a bit much to ask.

I'll tell you what - I'll save you the trouble and go do it myself.


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 8 Day 128 16:55
Sasha Striker
Sasha Striker
The point is that the rules were not changed and therefore we should get what we were entitled to according to the rules page AS IT IS PRESENTLY. You can't just randomly change the rules and not update the rules page. Rules don't work that way. Otherwise Why bother with the rules.


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Sashasiggy12.jpg\"
Year 8 Day 128 16:59
Koz Ofyurdeth
Koz Ofyurdeth
This point of logic is clearly far beyond their comprehension and not the way they wanna operate the game.
Although if its about some spying rule Hal has totaly different views on it geee when its something you wanna whine about how different a tune you play... just cant flame unless you change the view to oppose i spose.


Year 8 Day 128 17:00
Typically, the code is definitive, while the Rules pages are supposed to reflect what is coded. If there is a discrepancy, it usually occurs because the Rules pages are not updated, which is the case here. There was no error or bug - the code is functioning as it was intended to function. The problem is that the rules are not updated. That problem can be corrected by contacting Togan directly, posting in the Bug Base, or posting in the new forum for that purpose. The last one of these I have done (after a quick test of the actual code to check where the change needed to be made) and if you wish to contribute an alternate phrasing, I will be happy to provide the appropriate link.




I'm sorry that you have trouble understanding the difference between YOU not receiving credits for YOUR RMs, and people being banned for rules that don't exist. Your RMs, and the credits you did or did not receive for them is YOUR PROBLEM. People being banned from the game, using a rule that either does not exist, or does not apply, is an issue that should concern the entire player base. If a person can be banned for "infiltration", when such is not illegal, then what's to stop you for being banned for trying to get 160 million credits from your RMs as an exploit? Neither one is illegal, so why shouldn't you be banned the same as the other individual in question was? Stupid? Yes, but so is banning someone who didn't break the rules.
The fact that a person can be banned simply because someone decides they don't like what that person did is a global game issue. The fact that you didn't get a few credits because the rules pages weren't up to date is inconsequential to, well, everyone but you.


Edited By: Hal Breden on Year 8 Day 128 17:12
____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 8 Day 128 17:40
Koz Ofyurdeth
Koz Ofyurdeth
I dont even think your reading your own posts at this point. Clearly the logic of it is too much.

The rules dont say anything as to the mysterious bans - people complain , yah its an issue for us to be concerned on, the rules say nothing about my mysterious issue with money for my rm's - i complain those who may have the same issue would be just as concerned.
Thing is more people can be banned then can have a faction closed obviously its gonna have different numbers of those effected or concerned with the issue tho the general problem is the same THE RULES DONT REFLECT WHATS HAPENING is the logic that drastic to get, or do you just need to flame that bad.
Tthe only difference you have code to hide behind here , spy rules cant be coded. The fact the code changes only speaks against the fact the rules pages werent changed ... they can go through all that trouble and then NOT change the rules to reflect it by simply changing 1 line of text .... i played by EXACTLY what the rules for the game state, i didnt exploit, i didnt break a rule- in fact the rules are broken by those making them then since clearly what the pages state is not being followed through.


Year 8 Day 128 19:12
i complain those who may have the same issue would be just as concerned. 


That's the point, though. Someone who has not gotten money from RMs might be concerned about it. Nobody else is. When someone is BANNED FROM THE GAME, that concerns all of us playing. If they were cheating, we should be glad they cannot do so any more. If they did nothing wrong, we should be concerned that people are being banned without cause.

the general problem is the same THE RULES DONT REFLECT WHATS HAPENING is the logic that drastic to get, or do you just need to flame that bad. 


The Rules page not reflecting what occurs IS an issue. I'm glad we agree on this. In fact, I already said more than once that you have a valid issue with the Rules page being incorrect.

However, this is not the place to post in order to get the Rules page corrected. I have previously listed the appropriate venues for the Rules page to be corrected. But this post is not about the Rules page not reflecting the code. This post is about you getting money for your RMs. And apparently you should get money because someone else got money for their cities. Cities are not RMs. Did you have cities in the faction? Did you get money for them? Oh, right, you already admitted you got money for everything except the RMs. So please explain to me why the initial post drones on about these cities, when they are irrelevant to both the Rules page, and the RMs that you did not receive credits for?



Before you comment further on logic, please learn how to form a logical argument. And spell. Thank you.


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 8 Day 128 19:40
Koz Ofyurdeth
Koz Ofyurdeth
logic = the rules say this and this is what happens

illogical = the rules say this and something else happens

logic - this is fixed and according to the rules at the time and then future its handled by new rules as they should be marked with changes made.

logic = we play by the rules of the game as they are marked and when changed the rules we can see are too.

illogical = we dont play by the rules marked we go by some unseen magic and whats written is bull.

gee kinda sounds exactly like the issue with the spying , whats wirtten isnt whats beeing done and whats beeing done is unseen and not known by anyone but those who are actually involved with it.

doesnt get much simpler. clearly logic isnt what your getting at here.


Edited By: Koz Ofyurdeth on Year 8 Day 128 19:43
Year 8 Day 128 21:13
[sarcasm]
Oh, yes Koz, a few credits more or less in your account is exactly the same as someone being permanently banned from this game under a rule they didn't break!
[/sarcasm]

There is nothing remotely similar between your PERSONAL GREED, and wanting to know WHY SOMEONE WAS BANNED.

You aren't here in this thread asking for the rule to be clarified, you're here asking for money. Let me quote:
"are we not entitled to the 160 million credits worth of assets that the faction had when it dissolved?"

Answer: No, you're not. The Rules page is inaccurate. The solution to the issue is to POST IN THE APPROPRIATE PLACE TO GET THE RULES PAGE CHANGED. If you cared about the actual accuracy of the rules, and other people not being misled by inaccurate information, you'd have done that already. But instead, I had to do it for you, because you're really only here for your credits.

Stop trying to compare your IC greed with my OOC concern for the game.


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 8 Day 128 21:18
Koz Ofyurdeth
Koz Ofyurdeth
i must have said/posted my intentions somewheres where only you can see then or you read something in these posts that wasnt there....


Year 8 Day 128 22:18
id really like to see it reconsiled though doubt it ever will to my liking. AKA me getting whats clearly owed to me as per the rules page and events that occured under the rules..... 


From your first post, before I said a damn thing. Still want to deny it's about the money?


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 8 Day 129 1:26
Ralgarrch
Ralgarrch
If the code does not reflect the rules page it is usually because the rules page is out of date, we do not follow the out of date rules on such matters (especially when the change to the code was clearly announced), so you got exactly what you should have got and will be getting.


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Year 8 Day 129 1:47
If you care about anything besides the credits, you will be glad to know that the page has been updated on the Dev server, and will be corrected here with the next sync.


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
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