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Year 8 Day 349 14:43
David Kellar
David Kellar
Hal let me direct that slightly differently, I'm not worried about catching the "rule breaker" in advance of their act. I am wanting to ensure that damage caused by illegally breaking the rules is mitigated. The assumption by players is that when we have read and understand the rules that they will be enforced when broken (assuming it is reported) and enforced evenly, and further more that when a rule is broken or not, and the rules page is in question on whether that act is legal or not once the judgment is made the reasoning is given so that future game play can be taken into account. i.e. if the question is unclear and the determination is made by consulting how the code is written it is very very had to determine what the rules are. I had a question about the actions of Adam and co. regarding the NR turmoil atm. so I went to ask the Admins and the response I got was thus

(Edited for privacy, spelling and efficiency)

Q: does this rule to everyone in a faction? "You may not Sell, trade or give away classified information about your own group to person(s) that are not members of your or known allied groups."

A: this information does not apply to a faction's leader last I recalled

Q: if thats true, it's tough to play the game when the rules aren't public. Is this a hard and fast rule?

A: basically, it's open to interpretation. a faction's leader or owner has almost absolute power over the faction, and basically decides which persons/factions are "allies", since in terms of coded gameplay, the faction leader has the power to control the IFF and a/e list, he can pardon anyone of those ... whether that applies to your IC laws is another story which must be handled IC as well.


True from a coding standpoint, but within a non dictator government faction this rule seems to need to be enforced broadly. i.e. we agree that the emperor could reveal Darth Vaders location if he so choose, to destroy him. He is the emperor and the supreme power in the government, and all the little NPC's in the government will obey him. In a republic however that would not happen. I.e. the millions of NPC's would not instantly obey the admittedly criminal dictates of a faux leader.

but I'm starting to drift off topic.

/me gets off his hobby horse, and then steps down from his soapbox.


Year 8 Day 349 15:34
There is no such thing as a non-dictator government in SWC, as far as OOC is concerned.

You want it IC, you deal with it IC.


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 8 Day 349 15:35
Cesodevo Avina
Cesodevo Avina
So in other words, David, faction leaders are above the law?

That's interesting. I never knew that being a faction leader allowed you to get away with things you would get punished for as a regular player. Of course I am guessing that this person that answered those questions is someone of at least assistant+ level or whatever those higher-ups are called.

And how exactly was that statement of mine crossing IC/OOC boundaries? You have a character. He dies trying to kill XZ. So the person makes another character. Whip out a nice story, and presto, your new character happens to be a distant cousin of the one that died.
But ok, let's go with your thing. The new character is unknown to the faction. But, wasn't every character once unknown? Those with the right privileges accept members with the thought that they won't want to kill their leader, for whatever reason. But how can you tell who has had a character beforehand and who didn't? And if you have doubts of the person's loyalty, why accept them in the first place?
Another example, someone that never played the game before, and always liked the GE better, comes to the Combine and joins the NR for the sole purpose of killing their leader and doing the GE a favor, what is that then? Also breaking the rules?


It's probably fair to say that the rules are there because most people will obey them simply because they are there, rather than being there to specifically catch and punish people breaking them - because most of them won't be caught. 



So you are saying that it is already widely known that people are breaking the spying rules, and are just covering their tracks well enough so no one finds out? If that's the case, then sorry to ask this, but why are those rules there in the first place? Ok, some rules there seem pretty obvious (like no OOC insulting, no impersonating, etc), but those are all strictly OOC. Forums can be seen as an extension of the IC abilities (ie holograms or such), as is IRC, but with IRC the line between IC and OOC is much thinner.


I personally still believe that it is the target's fault for being spied on rather than doing it - just like with trading, theft can be prevented - with security, spying can be prevented. If the necessary steps are taken of course.


...man, I always end up going so far off-topic.

Anyway, there seems to be an unspoken agreement between Oilios, David and myself that the rules, as they currently stand, are not defined properly. Which brings about the nature and discussion of this topic.

And the final word seems to be that there won't be any change on those same rules. So they will stay nice and unclear for everyone except faction leaders, who seemingly are not bound by all of those rules. And with that said, there is no definite answer to Oilios' original question, although, as I said before, Lance's answer comes pretty close to it.


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Time to go to war with the Flame Tigers!
Year 8 Day 349 15:55
And how exactly was that statement of mine crossing IC/OOC boundaries? You have a character. He dies trying to kill XZ. So the person makes another character. Whip out a nice story, and presto, your new character happens to be a distant cousin of the one that died. 


When your character dies, that's supposed to be the end. You do not get your assets back. You don't get your old faction job back. You don't get to keep your old friends, enemies, or grudges. That is the way the game is supposed to work. If your new character takes action against people because of your old character, then you have OOC motivation, not IC motivation. Nothing has happened to your new character to justify those actions.
At the very least it's extremely poor RP. At worst, then yes, it's cheating. And you certainly can and will be punished for being given your old character's assets back, if nothing else.

Another example, someone that never played the game before, and always liked the GE better, comes to the Combine and joins the NR for the sole purpose of killing their leader and doing the GE a favor, what is that then? Also breaking the rules? 


A new person doesn't join the NR, they join the GE - the appropriate thing for someone opposing the Rebels to do. They don't join the NR with the intention of getting picked up, getting close to important members of the NR, and then switching to another faction with AE rights in order to arrest and kill those people.
Joining the GE as a new character with the intention of killing the NR is a legitimate in-game move.
Joining the NR as a new character with the intention to turn around and kill their members is illegal infiltration.

$
It's probably fair to say that the rules are there because most people will obey them simply because they are there 


If that's the case, then sorry to ask this, but why are those rules there in the first place?

- $$special
 


Doesn't this basically answer itself?


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 8 Day 349 15:58
Lance Hawke
Lance Hawke
I agree with all of the spying rules, however...

"Infiltrate a group and then report or sell the information you gather about it to another group."

...I'd like to actually know why that is in place.


EDIT: Hal's post above...

"Joining the NR as a new character with the intention to turn around and kill their members is illegal infiltration."

So old characters are alright to do so with?


Edited By: Lance Hawke on Year 8 Day 349 16:01
Year 8 Day 349 16:04
Oilios Katastrefor
Oilios Katastrefor
Who is anyone to stop us from keeping our old friends, enemies and grudges?


Year 8 Day 349 16:45
So old characters are alright to do so with? 


If you accept Teniel Djo into your faction, you should damn well know what to expect - all the evidence and warnings are there.
A new character - whether brand new, or a recreate - is an unknown face and an unknown name. There is no defense against someone who infiltrates without history or cause.

Who is anyone to stop us from keeping our old friends, enemies and grudges? 


Honestly, you probably have those friends and enemies because of how you and they act and feel OOC. You're unlikely to be friends with someone with a new character if you didn't like them with your old one. But your character is not supposed to step in and just resume old IC friendships, or IC vendettas. Or else it's not really a new character, is it?


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 8 Day 349 19:46
David Kellar
David Kellar
So I can't be Benjamin Kellar, son of David Kellar, martyr of the New Republic?


Year 8 Day 350 0:13
Jeb`el Ras
Jeb`el Ras
For example, group a and b are at war. Group A decides not to infiltrate. Group B chooses to infiltrate. Neither group faces any punishment but both groups do not know this. In this situation, the group that failed to go into the grey area is put at a disadvantage. Those who do not try and skirt around the letter of the law are punished while those who do are. 


So you're saying "We think other people cheat, so we're going to cheat too!"?

Reminds me of a thread started by a crazy Defel awhile back.

Strangely enough, you don't really seem too concerned about stopping the cheating, and have bitched loudly and constantly your side DID get caught and punished. So what's your motivation here?

Now, if you think that there's a problem and that something should be done to address the cheating, I'll back you all the way. I'm all for catching the cheaters and booting their asses out of the game permanently.


____________

' ' ',
` Jeb`el
Moebius (co-founder)

When all its work is done, the lie shall rot; The truth is great, and shall prevail,
When none cares whether it prevail or not. - Coventry Patmore
Year 8 Day 350 0:34
So I can't be Benjamin Kellar, son of David Kellar, martyr of the New Republic?

- David Kellar
 


You can be the above person, however it might be considered ... not that good RP, which should only be an OOC problem.
The IC problem you might run into is when you join the NR with the intention of assassinating its current leader (or something similar). If you join a different faction to do that task, then I consider it rather good RP and punishment for your planned IC actions will be very unlikely.

Going back to the original post:
Additionally what constitutes "Classified information?"

- Oilios Katastrefor
 

Classified information is determined by the faction leader. He can - also without noticing his faction members - determine that any information about the faction is or is not classified.
Example: GWB decides to make all information about Area 51 (or any other military secret) unclassified. I'm not an expert of US proceedings for cases like that, but I don't think there is much people can do to stop him.
Thus, if Flynn decides that revealing person A's location is relevant for his plans, he is free (and completely within the rules) to do so. If you have an IC problem with that, deal with it IC.

I hope the silly discussion about "He broke our IC laws, he should be punished by the Admins" will cease soon ... it's ridiculous.


Edited By: Togan Jano on Year 8 Day 350 0:42
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mystats.php?uid=c1
Year 8 Day 350 3:12
So if, for example....I'm handed a list of faction ranks by Hapes, And I then go and offer to sell them to someone. Someone buys it and before i send it Hapes all of a sudden decides It's classified again. But Oops, It's way to late. Then what?


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\"Visit
Year 8 Day 350 3:38
Cesodevo Avina
Cesodevo Avina
Ah, finally a decent answer I could almost live with. Thanks Togan.

But, what if you are not in a faction? If I were for instance to create a group (not a faction), would I have the same privileges as the faction leaders? After all, it does say groups and not factions. So if the rules say groups and Togan and Mystery Man say factions...which one is it then?

If this isn't the case, could one say that creating a faction (not a group) automatically gives you the right to bend part of the spying rules as you see fit?

Another thing, how would the general public know what faction leader X considers classified information about his faction? I know, somewhat of a stupid question, but if you get smacked for something you didn't know...
And what rights do faction owners have in this light?

And Rogmi, the faction ranks of Hapes are, like with most other governments, publicly viewable, at least the last time I checked. (So if you actually sell someone this information, you'd probably be listed as a scammer) So if Hapes were to declare them classified, then they would have to take them down from the website and order all members to have hidden profiles or just don't fill out infofields in the first place anymore. If they didn't, then everyone visiting that rank page would - according to the rules - by breaking the spying rules if they told someone else about it.


____________

Time to go to war with the Flame Tigers!
Year 8 Day 350 3:47
Rogmi: If you sold the data before it became classified, it's good. If you sold it afterwards it's open to interpretation:
- did you sell old data, from a time when it wasn't classified - should be good
- did you sell new data, from the time after it became classified - will certainly be bad

Cesodevo: I believe "group" on that specific rules page references factions and not non-faction groups. That part it is indeed quite unclear, however SWC only recognises characters and factions as "player" entities, non-faction groups are nothing in terms of code, thus the spying rules concerning "groups" might not apply to them. I suggest making a new thread in the Rules Update forum to get clarification and/or an edit of that specific rules page.


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mystats.php?uid=c1
Year 8 Day 350 4:19
Cesodevo Avina
Cesodevo Avina
Nah, it's fine. The whole spying rules are too gray for me to make a suggestion on something as comparingly puny as that.

So we have determined through the provided answers that the spying rules are flexible enough to be applied on everyone that is not a potential veteran, that some people knowingly break the spying rules because they know they won't be caught, that 'classified information' varies from faction to faction, leaving much room for corruption, and that faction leaders stand above the law.

*gives thumbs-up signal and smiles*
All is clear on my side now, thanks.


____________

Time to go to war with the Flame Tigers!
Year 8 Day 350 6:41
Lance Hawke
Lance Hawke
You think that was fun Cesodevo? I like how my question was completely ignored.


Year 8 Day 350 8:17
Tyr Tulon
Tyr Tulon
I think it was changed from factions to groups to allow nationalized (or whatever) factions to freely pass information to each other without breaking spying rules.

So if, for example....I'm handed a list of faction ranks by Hapes, And I then go and offer to sell them to someone. Someone buys it and before i send it Hapes all of a sudden decides It's classified again. But Oops, It's way to late. Then what? 
Well, if you're not in Hapes, which I'd assume since you said they'd handed them to you rather than gave you access, then even if they make it classified later, you can sell it.
You May:
Sell information about a third party to another party i.e. A third group sells info to the rebels about the empire. 
It also applies to people finding out something classified and announcing it in a GNS (while not in that faction), which I believe came up earlier. Basically, the rules allow both.


Year 8 Day 350 11:14
Jeb`el Ras
Jeb`el Ras
non-faction groups are nothing in terms of code, thus the spying rules concerning "groups" might not apply to them 

That's the interpretation used in the past.

Note that this does not apply to hacking an NFG website or other similar OOC actions.


____________

' ' ',
` Jeb`el
Moebius (co-founder)

When all its work is done, the lie shall rot; The truth is great, and shall prevail,
When none cares whether it prevail or not. - Coventry Patmore
Year 8 Day 350 11:30
I'm handed a list of faction ranks by Hapes, And I then go and offer to sell them to someone. Someone buys it and before i send it Hapes all of a sudden decides It's classified again. But Oops, It's way to late. Then what? 


Really, there are three possible situations:

1) You are not in Hapes. You know the information you received was classified, and you have received it illegally.
In this situation, you should not try to sell the information, and you should report the person who gave it to you.
2) You are not in Hapes. You received the information legally (either because it wasn't classified, or the person was authorised to give it to you, etc). In this situation, you can sell this information and do with it what you want legally.
3) You are in Hapes. You were told you could give the information out. You sell it. The next day, you're told it's classified, and a complaint is made to the Admin about you.
In this situation, you damn well better have logs (or e-mail, or better yet Darkness Messages) with the permission for you to give out the information. Then it becomes the problem of the person who gave you permission. But you shouldn't try to sell it again after this, since you've been told it's classified.



Which question, Lance? The one about infiltrating factions for Info? Given the rest of the Spying rules, and their focus, I should feel it was obvious. Every member of a faction gets information on the faction. You can't stop them. You can stop them from robbing you of assets/credits. You can stop them from killing your people. You can stop them from flying ships into a sun. But you can't protect the information. That's why the Rules do it for you.

Of course, they can't protect people from their own stupidity.


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
Year 8 Day 350 11:35
Cam Antilles
Cam Antilles
Of course, they can't protect people from their own stupidity. 


I disagree Hal.


If you leave a group and are still on their mailing list then you may remain there if the owner says you are allowed to, if not you MUST clearly continue to inform the owner of the list until you are taken off. Information sent from the list after you leave the group and after you warned the list owner is yours to use as you wish.
 


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swcsig.jpg\"
\"Somewhere, there\'s a bullet with your name on it. The trick is to die of age before it finds you\"
Year 8 Day 350 11:41
Point


____________

"May the Grace of Ara go with you, and His Vengeance be wrought upon your enemies."

Only fools and children dream of heroes.
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