That the former GE admin supports GE taking over another government using nothing but kick member privs? (Including kicking members with far more privs then themselves?)

Also sent to Vey

CSA, Max, Bug

Some of the leaders WERE online at the time of the take over, how can you say without reasonable doubt that they wouldn't have been able to loot the factions anyways? for instance I know Bill Wildstar in MG was already on top of things from the first second.

-Midge

This is not the place for your biased personal bitching.

Exactly, if there was a bug, that does not mean they couldnt have traded assets anyway.

and what about this?

“Spying
1/ You May Not:
Infiltrate another group with the intention of killing their members via any method other than a red scenario. ”

Yes there is a disclaimer of sorts, but its still there, and its very very clear that is what the GE person did.

I'll take GE gets more free stuff from Vey for 200, Alex....

Personal input on this...

I have been playing for 3 full years now.
I know it's a game in development.
But anyhow, every member in CSA put efforts into creating something meaningful to them.

It is sad to see that, using techniques that make no real sense at all, can have such a huge impact on the game.

Having someone take over an entire government, with the help of a handful of persons, is a pure non-sense to me.

They can perhaps manage to kill the leader, I agree, but how can they simply take control of everything surrounding them? By the click of a button.

There is no way that we would have simply watch everything being seized by 5-6 persons. It is also pretty doubful that Max, and a loyal crew would have simply sunend themselves without any reaction, especially if only infiltrated by a single person.

A message from a player that is suddenly disappointed to see that such exploits of game mechanics are allowed, used, and tolerated.

If anyone knows of an instance in which sunning (edit: or joining a faction only to kill a person) a person was considered against the golden rule, or any rule, and reversed. Please state such case here, it would shed some light on why this person was let into CSA and given privs. Last case scenario a delay in aquiring leadership would make so much IC sense that instant privileges should be considered a design flaw, and we should thank the 'bug', which is still really to be proved if it was or if Imperium simply did not act at the right time.

1) PDJ gets saved by admins when Rav joined RP only to kill him.
2) ?
3) ?
4) ?

Well, while not sunning, I know the rule that you quoted was added in by Dreighton after Rav Isaar joined the Raptor Pirates on behalf of Eidola and killed its leader via a/e. Rav was banned for quite awhile and the guy was resurrected.

Though that tends to fall more under that guy having been one of Dreighton's convention buddies than anything else.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say this should have been covered by golden rule violations?

1. Sunning in an attempt to a/e someone is completely un-IC.
2. Presumably, joe bob, my office manager, doesn't go up to the vice president and fire him.

Midge was 2nd IC and his privs were removed...sounds like a big bug to me.

This games starts to become more and more stupid.
Maybe we had to pay money and then we could have been protected...highest bidder always wins right?

I was 2IC in CSA< how the hell does someone only with kick privs take out a 2IC of a govt 0.o. It defies all IC logic

Is it logical? No.

Is that the way it currently is? Yes.

If you want to start a suggestion thread that people with lower privs can not kick people with higher privs, I'm sure there would be a lot of support for it.

However, should it retrospectively affect this event? No, I don't think so. Else what? Every other occurrence of a similar action taking place in the past X many years should also be reversed? Sure, it sucks and should probably be changed for the future, but what's done is done, and was done using the current limitations/functions of the game in it's current state.

I disagree Meph, I believe that the 2IC is specifically set by the Leader and only the Leader. And thus the 2IC should only be replaceable/kicked outable by the Leader. As the kicks happened prior to becoming the leader ... then the Leadership should have fallen to Midge when Max was assassinated.

I believe the CSA issue should be resolved and fixed giving Midge the proper leadership and assets made over to the GE back to CSA.

A Normal member cant kick out the Leader of the faction, but i understand they can have them killed, but they should likewise not be able to kick the LEADER set 2IC.

You couldnt kick 2IC's before Meph. I think it maybe is a fault in the new inventory and ofc it has been abused then.

What Treemare said is totally right.

Jormungand Gand did almost exactly the same as I did (expel members privs to remove higher characters, and have someone fly Quard Ithan's ship into a sun) when he took over Centarra Mining. Quard was even on a Bulk Freighter IIRC, the same type of ship Max was. He was not punished, indeed, there was hardly the batting of an eyelid over how he'd taken over.

On another application, getting someone in position so that they can be assassinated through being flown into a sun is well known. Indeed, an Imperial Admiral and some others had this happen to them only last week.

On another application, assassinating faction leaders to take over in general has not been an unheard of practice by any measure.

I'm not entirely sure where people are getting that spying rule. I'm looking at the rules page on spying, and I'm seeing OOC bribery/threatening, previous character information, impersonation of members, intercepting communications, hacking or infiltrating private areas, or faking in-game behaviour.

Illogical? Indeed. Underhanded? No disagreements. However, I didn't do anything that hasn't been done before, without problems. The only trouble here is a bug kept things from working as they should have, and as such CSA leaders had four hours rather than two minutes to react to it.

Oh well 5 years of work down the drain, like CSA or hate it, they did have a part in this game and were big enough and co-ordinated enough to post some trouble come combat.

What has now happened, pretty much will lead that group of players to quit the game and move on, it simply is not worth the time and effort to do it all again, if the admins think this is a good thing for the game then so be it, but disenchanting so many active people from the game, that needs the activity and interaction, particularly with new players just to survive, will not bode well for the game into the future.

The game isn't finished yet and as we have seen in the past things that have been against the golden rule in the past have been reversed and rectified, (not saying a 100% reversal is needed) maybe this is a situation that needs to be looked into as well.

If the shoe was on the other foot and one of us did this to GE, kicked out those with privleges, killed the leader and took over, I am sure it would be changed in minutes.

Orph, you killing max is irrelevant. Thats perfectly capable within the realm, but kicking out the 2IC with your minuscule accesses, now thats something entirely different.

Zorran, I agree, if this was the GE being knocked down like this its my personal belief that Veynom would have sided with GE and reversed it almost immediately after finding out about it.

Such as happened before and Vey didn't reverse it. Gand kicked out the rightful 2IC when he took over Centarra, and you don't see Quard Ithan around as that character anymore do you? Centarra was very much involved with the Empire at that point, operating a great many mines for the Empire as Cloud City wasn't back up to scratch, and helping to develop one of the Empire's tax planets. Or I'll play your game - it's only because it's the GE achieving something that everyone else is trying to tear it down.

As I recall, Gand had been in Centara a while before stealing it, which meant it wasn't infiltration, just looting. What's at issue here is the infiltration rules, like Paps gave:

"1/ You May Not
Infiltrate another group with the intention of killing their members via any method other than a red scenario."

This is clearly what was done here, as this was Orphea's first and only act as a member of CSA, and he would have had to have all the GE people standing by to go.

In the past, Rav Isaar tried something like this. He was banned for it, and in the SimNews, it was stated:

"Ban and clarification about spying rules

Rav Isaar has been banned for breaking the spying rules. He infiltrated Raptor Pirates to get members of the group arrested by Eidola...So there was a plan to have Rav join the Raptor Pirates with a harmful intention and this clearly is infiltration, no matter if any information was passed to anyone outside the group while Rav was a member of Raptor Pirates."

These were the rules posted and I took them at face value. Those were the rules I assumed were true when CSA accepted Orphea as a member. I would be sorely disappointed if the Administrators decided to ignore this.

The Spying rules have not included infiltrating to kill in a LONG time. It was removed long before the incident with Rav, which is why his punishment was controversial. Officially, Rav was banned for planning to create a character to infiltrate. That was Veynom's final word, be it right or wrong. As has been said, Jormungand did something IDENTICAL to what is being described here (and I only have the information in this thread to go by), so there's your precedent.