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Year 16 Day 286 19:41
So, the question has been raised to me again. Is it possible to have prospected a terrain with max sensors and max level in the past with negative result and then redo it later and have a positive result? My understanding is that a fail is always a fail unless come condition of the prospect has changed. Do deposit chances get reset ever? I know they were manually refreshed once long ago but do they ever do it as a normal course of events? A definitive answer on this would be much appreciated.


Year 16 Day 286 22:14
THey shouldn't. Prospecting is a threshold system, so if you didn't find a deposit the only way to try again and find something is to get a better sensor count.


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Year 16 Day 287 1:33
Yea, that's what I've always been told but meanwhile I have another system governor telling me it's not true. I'd love for Selatos to answer this.


Year 16 Day 287 7:32
What Ellias said is correct.

-Selatos's bitch for mining related things


Year 16 Day 287 12:45
I'll try to get the person to post specifics as they say that it is indeed happening. Maybe a bug? Can someone on the bug team try to replicate? This debate is getting rather old and I really want a difinitve answer before wasting a ton of time reprospecting grids that have already been done by a level 5 guy.


Year 16 Day 287 13:11
If there's a bug going on (IE: you have a demonstrated occurrence of successfully reprospecting a square that you're sure had already been done by a level 5 guy), yeah take down all the specifics (including ID#s of the vehicles being used etc.) and submit a bug report. If it happens once, it ought to be happening again, and the QA team should be able to replicate on Dev.

I don't see the point in asking the QA team to try to prove a negative (IE: test reprospecting grids already checked by a lvl 5 with top avail sensors and conclude that you'll never get a different result without improving the sensors).


Year 16 Day 289 1:18
I was pointed to an old forum thread on the issue and ran across this post:

"Re: A couple of questions about prospecting

Postby ***** ***** on July 23rd, 2012, 9:53 am
Just before he left, I had a talk with Sims on this... and he had one other "uncnfirmed but thought to be true" theory on re-prospecting.

I asked how long to wait before re-prospecting a failed search. He said if you have a higher compops person come along, you can test right away.

However, if you are the only one re-testing, the check isn't "reset" until a certain number of propsection checks were made "galaxy wide" this means than the ideal time until re-prospecting might be a week, or it might be a month, depending on how many other checks are happening."

This seems to point to the theory of rerolling deposit chances. Is/was this just speculation in error? Was it how it worked then and now does not? Or is it still how it works? My understanding is that this was never true but obviously I cannot see the code to know the answer. Please Selatos! Answer yourself to put this issue to rest difinitively once and for all!! I have people telling me they have run into this currently being in place and I tell them it isn't so............. Right? Save me and let the swc mining world know!!


Year 16 Day 289 10:17
Simkin Dragoneel

Having Sel come here isn't going to fix your problem.

Sel HAS said many times that according to the code the only way to get a deposit that wasn't there before is by going over the threshold (Mining Sensors or Comp Op).

Pulling what I said 3 years ago when I was fixing JMC was just my observations from a LOT of mining and prospecting. TBH, it is such a non-issue that it doesn't need testing.

Your problem is you are in a bureaucracy. So it doesn't matter who says what, you chose for Med-O to be a PSA and so you gotta listen to your "superiors". I have heard similar stories from other people, including someone who was demoted for insubordination in the GE because his CO told him to squad two VSD's..... which isn't possible (both party slots are 12.0).

So your definitive answer for the mining community is "No, it isn't possible".

That will definitely not stop people from doing it though or being ordered to.


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Year 16 Day 289 15:22
Thanks for the confirmation from you as well Sims., I know you do a lot of mining. Just to be accurate tho, in no way am I under any type of "orders" to recheck deposits. I just have another system governor telling me that they do so of their own decision and that supposedly it works. I'm not gonna name any names here but your assumption that it is any way due to our system of government or any sort of order is simply untrue. It's not a "problem" of mine. I just want to have some solid statement from the head coder so as to stop having it thrown up as a workable method when everything points to it being a result of the long ago reset of all deposits and nothing that is possible thru current code.


Year 16 Day 292 8:12
I am going to give you an idea on how we do it, I don't know how you do it, but it is an example.

We go through each set 3 times, with three different lvls.

First set is a lvl 3 comp op, and then we go up a level for each set after. If the lvl 5 scans it, and finds nothing, it is considered a dead square for deposits. After that point, we dont mess with it any more.

I know there are a lot of people who do it this way, but I also know there are a lot of people who dont. Why not just use a lvl 5 to start with? Because if you fail with a lvl 5, you really have no chance of getting something there because you can't go over the last check that was done. That, and the lower lvl's tend to be in more abundance than the higher ones.


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Year 16 Day 292 17:33
Uh, your point about lvls 5 is a fallacy; if the threshold needs a comops of 3 with max sensors, then yes it will find it, but so will the compops 4 and 5. It isn't like you have a better chance with more searching and you are only wasting money/time.

Granted yes lower levels are more abundant, but using them over higher levels that are available purely to make it look like you are getting a better chance without it actually doing anything.


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Okay, so Ellias, anyone else who actually looks at the code:
That seems inconsistent with the Rules...

The Rules suggest to me that the Terrain is schrodinger's deposit until someone successfully prospects it.
- If someone prospects it with sensors/compOps X, and fails, but then comes along and re-prospeects with sensors/comOps X+1, there's TWO rolls to check if there's a deposit there, and the X+1 attempt is with a higher "sensor" value, such that it's a higher value, but ultimately it's a brand new RAND roll that could get lucky on. Worst that would happen is you find nothing and have to reprospect at a higher level.

Doesn't that mean if you prospect first with the minimum sensors possible CompOps 0 and 1 Flying scanner and fail, that it's a brand new threshold and roll when you come back with a higher sensors?


Edited By: Kay Dallben on Year 16 Day 293 6:36
Year 16 Day 293 8:20
Based upon previous threads about prospecting/mining is that each and every terrain square in the Combine has a threshold score, which does not change. When someone prospects one of the terrain squares the equation for finding a deposit is initiated and the result is compared to the terrain threshold score. If the prospectors score is equal to or greater than the terrains threshold score then a deposit is found and followed by the raw material check to see what raw material was found.

It seems that many people become confused because the equation for prospecting has the words "chance of finding" and raw material deposits are represented as percentages. So most people believe it to be random chance rather than a threshold.

Prospecting Equation
Chance of finding = ( 1 + Total Sensors^(Comp Op/30+0.05) ) * Terrain Prob

As previously mentioned this equation runs when prospecting. Supposing you use a full set of Groundhogs, each one with 40 Minings Sensors, and the prospector has a Computer Operations skill of 5 you would have the following equation.

Chance of finding = 4.81 * Terrain Probability

In this equation terrain probability essentially acts as a skill bonus since as the terrain probability increases the higher your score is. If we assume the terrain is the mountain type, which has a 10% probability of raw materials, then we will have the following prospector score.

Prospector Final Score = 48.1

Remember, all terrain squares have a threshold that does not change no matter how many times you prospect that particular square. Which means in the above example the prospector will find deposits on any terrain that has a threshold that is less than or equal to ~48%. However, should the threshold amount for that particular terrain be greater than that score then they will not find any deposits.

Closing Comment
If you are finding raw material deposits on terrain squares that have already been prospected then there are two possibilities. The first is that the last time the planet was prospected was before the galaxy shift quite a few years ago. Or the person that prospected the planet before was not entirely truthful about their Computer Operations skill or whether or not they used the correct or maximum amount of vehicles for that particular terrain. I hope the above explanation has cleared up a few things.


Year 16 Day 293 12:07
From what I have heard the deposit is either there, or it is not there. It has a set threshold number and the only reason your 3 doesn't find it is because he can't possibly get above the threshold score. If your 5 cannot, it means the threshold is currently impossible, or no threshold exists as there is no deposit.


Year 16 Day 293 21:57
As above. All terrain squares have some value you need to beat. THis doesn't get re-rolled until a deposit is completely drained. It is not run as and when you prospect (from what I understand anyway), so the way the equation in the formula says things is possibly a bit misleading in its wording.


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Year 16 Day 294 11:12
Selatos


Sel HAS said many times that according to the code the only way to get a deposit that wasn't there before is by going over the threshold (Mining Sensors or Comp Op). 


I don't remember saying this, and I'm pretty sure I said the opposite to Obiwan Soares about a week ago. I was under the impression that a random number was rolled on a square every time someone prospected and compared to the composite probability. I guess we need to take another look to get a definitive answer.

I know that years ago, the system worked exactly as described. RM deposits were created and distributed and you had to discover them; when a mine was depleted another deposit was created at a random location in the galaxy. I thought this was changed because of people hoarding all the deposits.


Year 16 Day 294 12:47
Sel, Please Please have someone follow up and get us a real definitive answer! This is something that so many people speak on but I have yet to see an answer from someone actually from looking at the code itself. It's rather important to know how this actually works after all.


Year 16 Day 294 18:54
Ok, Kendall looked into the code for this.

Appears that there are no stored values for RM deposits. Every time you prospect it re-rolls the chances of you finding and if yes, which RM you find. Sometimes you might win the chance of finding, but the random roll you get still sits at a place where there is no RM present (the Determining Type of Deposit section of the mining rules for that).

Once you have a deposit, then it locks it in and saves it in the database.

So I was wrong, you can keep prospecting as long as your heart desires until you find a deposit.


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Year 16 Day 294 18:58
Kendall Holm

I just checked the code. And unless there is another action class somewhere for prospecting, you can prospect the same square to infinity until you actually find something. The only time it records anything is if you actually find something.


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Year 16 Day 294 20:24
So you are saying that a prospector can sit on a terrain square that has no raw material deposits and prospect over and over until they find a raw material deposit? That if they do sit there and prospect they will find a guaranteed raw material deposit?

So a higher Computer Operations skill reduces the amount of time it takes to prospect and increases the chance of finding a raw material deposit during that specific prospecting cycle. Therefore reducing the number of times you need to prospect a given terrain square before finding a deposit. Would that be correct?


Edited By: Gwen Leor on Year 16 Day 294 20:25
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